Why free will STILL = election

#1. Free will is "supernaturally created" in sinful depraved humanity by DRAWING THEM to God.

Even Calvinists have admitted that the supernatural DRAWING OF GOD enables what depravity DISABLED by way of choosing salvation.

#2. Arminians do not argue that God is not the Sovereign FIRST cause and since He is all knowing - that He DID choose the SALVATION model and in doing so knew EXACTLY who that would save! He also knew that ZAPPING BRAINS of all humanity would save ALL mankind - but would wreck a free will universe given enough time.

So it is AGREED that God CHOSE a system that does NOT result in ALL humans being in heaven and that He knew from the very start EXACTLY Who would go to heaven and who would not given the plan that He chose.

however to argue it in this way - is NOT Calvinism!!

In Christ,

Bob

 

Actually,

I believe his argument goes one step further by saying that since God created the system of free will, he also chose who would use that free will to choose God and who wouldn't.

At least, I think that is what he is saying.

Joseph Botwinick

 

If so - he is simply having a hard time "being God" which is where Calvinism ultimately fails.

IT wants to know HOW it is that God CREATES free will and yet KNOWS ALL -- HOW does God do it??!! One must BE GOD to do it or know it - and that is where Calvinism fails.

The Arminian model is to argue that God DOES IT and we BELIEVE it. We do not argue that we THINK as GOD and so we know HOW HE does it!

To Claim that God MADE the person CHOOSE X is to contradict the starting claim that He gave them free will. It is back to "Standing there the entire time you are sitting". It is the self-conflicted model that Calvinism employs.

In Christ,

Bob

 

"1. God gave man free will to choose his own salvation
2. God knew who would use their free will to be saved (foreknowledge)
3. Therefore God controlled those who would be saved by giving men free will"--------------------------------------------------------------------

So in the end, you are Arminin.

 

This is the old "circle back and ignore what was said in response to this point" approach.

It has been stated repeatedly that the depravity of mankind disables choice - but the DRAWING by God of ALL MANKIND to Himself (John 12:32) ENABLES that choice that depravity DISABLES.

EVEN CALVINISTS have admitted to the ENABLING of the DRAWING OF GOD!!

How in the world then can you possibly circle back to "yes but isn't fallen man sinful and incapable of choice without that drawing of God?" -- AS IF that is some kind of cogent "next step" to the point ALREADY made in that discussion???

What is up with that??

In Christ,

Bob

 

As has been pointed out ad nauseum, you make a huge leap. You are correct in what you say to a point, and you even point it out that you agree with Calvinists. The problem is that you apply the effectual drawing to all mankind without exception. Scripture does not. And that is where you go wrong.

 

Well you are at least right in that the "difference" is NOT that Arminians claim the "DRAWING" of God ENABLES what Depravity Disables -- rather it is that Arminians actually "BELIEVE" that God "Draws ALL UNTO HIM" but Calvinists believe God only draws "THE FEW UNTO HIM" and by that they mean the FEW of Matt 7 -- the elect.


But this is not where TCASSIDY lodges his complaint! He pretends to believe that Calvinists DO NOT think that the DRAWING of God enables choice!

So why is it that we must have Arminians correcting the Calvinists! Why don't calvinists themselves do it?

In Christ,

Bob