Why I am "anti-intellectual"

Hi Stilllearning,

I believe in the plenary, verbal inspiration of the original texts, which have passed into infinity, but we were talking about all the various translations in this thread.

I still believe the book I hold in my hand in the pulpit is the veritable Word of God.

I truly hope that puts me back in the good books, my brother.

Cheers, bless, and thanks for picking me up on that point,

Jim

 

So this verse refers to specific translations?

Wow. That's some serious text-torturing going on there.

 

Not to mention "intellect-torturing".:laugh:

 

No, it is a valid argument. If God expects us to live by "every" word, then it is only reasonable that a good and just God would provide "every" word. This shows the scriptures are preserved down to the word.

Now, that does not identify any particular text, but it does limit it to one. It does prove for example that the RT and CT cannot both be the word of God because the CT is missing nearly 3000 words in the Greek text. Either the RT added words, or the CT diminished words, but they cannot both be the word of God, that is impossible.

 

But you've not proven why the RT is the right one.

Also...if I met an ESV only person, they would have exactly the same logical basis for their argument as you.

 

To me that is the crux of the issue. BOTH cannot be right, yet I'm amazed at all of you who claim they are. I'm not saying WHICH one is right, but common sense should tell everyone they BOTH cannot be right.

 

You are correct, and that is what I have said numerous times myself. God's word clearly points to one text, because it must be preserved down to the word, but that does not identify which is the correct text.

So, how do you identify the correct text? How do the scriptures show themselves to be preserved? The scriptures show themselves to be preserved by the true and faithful servants of God through the ages, through true believers. An example of this is when evil king Jehoiakim burned the original autographs that Jeremiah had delivered to him.

Jer 36:22 Now the king sat in the winterhouse in the ninth month: and there was a fire on the hearth burning before him.
23 And it came to pass, that when Jehudi had read three or four leaves, he cut it with the penknife, and cast it into the fire that was on the hearth, until all the roll was consumed in the fire that was on the hearth.

There are a couple of interesting things in this passage concerning scripture. First, Jeremiah did not write these words, he had his assistant Baruch write the words God revealed to him. This shows that a person does not have to be an inspired prophet to faithfully record the scriptures. Jeremiah was inspired, Baruch was not.

Second, the original autographs were destroyed forever, they were burned on the fire.

But God commanded Jeremiah to write the words again. This is an instance of God preserving his scriptures.

Jer 36:27 Then the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah, after that the king had burned the roll, and the words which Baruch wrote at the mouth of Jeremiah, saying,
28 Take thee again another roll, and write in it all the former words that were in the first roll, which Jehoiakim the king of Judah hath burned.

Notice Jeremiah was commanded to make an exact copy of the original autographs that were destroyed. He was to record every word again.

Concerning the scriptures we have today, basically put there are two lines of scripture, the RT and the CT. Those who argue that the CT is older are misleading. Yes, the KJB was translated from texts that were not as old as the CT, but there is much evidence to support that the RT existed well before the CT. The very early church father's writings support the RT, as do many ancient translations in other languages that existed well before the CT.

And then we look at the people who held and passed on these different lines of text. The RT can be traced to faithful people of God who were tortured and killed for their faith, while the CT is traced to the RCC who are the ones who killed and tortured these faithful Christians. The RCC is the most corrupt church ever on the face of the earth, hardly the ones to be trusted with God's word.

 

I believe that every word in the Scriptures is God breathed. I believe that every word in the Scriptures will be preserved. Now, your assumption that one text(RT/CT) must be perfect is faulty. First, we have the issue that the were both created after the year 1500. (The RT traces back to Erasmus and his texts during starting in the 1500's). So if one must be perfect to have preservation, then what was this text prior to the 1500s? Secondly, there is no Scripture to support this claim. The Bible is clear that the words are inspired by God or God breathed. The Bible is clear that the writers were kept from error. The Bible is clear the that words are pure, inerrant. The Bible is clear the the words will be preserved. He didn't say how He would preserve them, just that they will be preserved. We are not told that copyist would be kept from errors in copying the Scriptures. We are not told that translators would be kept from error. We have many varying texts of the Scriptures. We know that every words will be preserved. This doesn't mean that one particular rendering would be perfect. Especially picking one that started almost 1400 years after the Scriptures were complete.

There is logic and the is Bible. The OP said, "If we are forced to choose between trusting God’s Word to be perfect, or being intellectuall, than I choose to trust the perfection of God’s Word!"

I don't think a choice like that needs to be made. The correct question would be choices between intellect and what the Bible says. And I choose what the Bible says. However, we must keep to what the Bible says all still why using the brains God gave us.

 

Saying that every one of God's words are God-breathed is not the same thing as saying they will be preserved. Being preserved means they will be kept intact, none of them will be lost. Jesus said heaven and earth will pass away, but his words will never pass away. God also said his words are pure, which means without error or corruption.

The RT can trace itself back to the earliest church fathers, and it can be traced to very early translations well before the CT. This is documented fact whether you want to accept it or not. The KJB translators were familiar with the CT texts and rejected them.

 

Agree. The words are God breathed and preservation means they(the God breathed words) will be kept. None of the words will be lost but preserved.

Actually, the CT has the oldest reading I believe in p66 with John. The RT didn't have p66. And any documentation that the KJV translators rejected the CT texts? Of course the CT was not in existence yet. the Vaticanus was locked away. But my point was not which had the oldest particular reading. (I would say both have original readings in them if you wanted to get technical). My point is the the RT didn't come about till the 1500's. The few manuscripts they used were before that, but it wasn't complied together with Matthew to Revelation. The CT came later the the RT as far as compiling, but did have more manuscripts to reference. My point again, is not to argue which is right(RT or CT). There are good arguments for both. I side with CT, you side with RT. No problem there. But to claim that one has to be perfect on the basis of preservation is false. To claim one is better, is a matter to agree to disagree on.

 

Do you know what preservation is? You can't have preservation happening later and not now. Maybe I should have said is being preserved. I was saying that the Scriptures will always be preserved.

Any source for that number? That's pretty good. Of course I believe that God is preserving his words for us today just as He was in 1000, 1200, 1300, 1500, 1600...

Actually, they were not KJBO, but that's another topic. You OP was about intellectual vs Scripture. I say both to be used, with Scripture taking the top position. We can't look at the Bible like a child would read the Bible. We can use logic and sound reasoning when looking at the Scriptures.

 

Been here a zillion times. No need to visit it again.