Why I don't accept Amillennialism

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by BobRyan, Jan 23, 2015.

  1. BobRyan

    BobRyan
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    I am starting this thread as inspiration regarding the following post.


    I agree that pre-trib, mid-trib is not correct and I agree with pre-mill.

    But Amill cannot be right because the 1000 years in Rev 20 prohibits it - and the 1000 years of Rev 20 begins at the event described in Rev 19 (no chapters when John wrote Revelation) - as can be seen by the fact that in Rev 20 the righteous are raised up "in the FIRST resurrection" and in 1Thess 4 Paul reminds us that the "Dead in Christ rise FIRST" at the 2nd coming of Christ - called the rapture by many.

    At the Rev 19 and 1Thess 4 "Second coming" - the "Dead in Christ rise first" and all the saints are taken to heaven with Christ.



    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  2. PreachTony

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    As a life-long member of the Amil camp, I caution people to avoid looking at Revelation as a linear chronological progression. John admits from the start that he was "in the Spirit on the Lord's Day." This is a Godly vision, divinely sent to John. Taking it 100% literally is not the correct approach, as far as I'm concerned. It simply demands to be accepted spiritually, and required us to seek the Lord in discerning the scripture.

    If the righteous are not raised up in the First Resurrection until Revelation 20, then where did these people come from?
    If the First Resurrection isn't until Revelation 20, then how did this numberless multitude find themselves before God in Revelation 7? It doesn't work if you hold to Revelation being a linear progression of time. But if you recognize the spiritual nature of the book, the progression of events comes into better focus.

    Consider also:
    According to Paul's exposition of the resurrection here, we see Christ raised first, then those which are Christ's, and then THE END. Christ hands over all things to the Father and the Father is fully recognized as All in All.

    For standard Premillennialism to be true, then Paul's account in this scripture must be, in some way, either flawed or incomplete. Jesus already reigns, as He must reign "till he hath put all enemies under his feet."

    Yes, Revelation 20 says "thousand years." But again, taking Revelation so literally risks undermining the value of the message in the scripture.

    One last thing:
    This verse always jumps to my mind when discussing eschatology. If Jesus is intent on setting up a kingdom on this Earth, then the validity and sincerity of this passage has to be called into question. Why would our Lord and Savior say that His kingdom is not of this world, if He's actually planning on establishing that kingdom in the future? To adopt a more literal, non-spiritual point of view, every premiller that I know claims that the Temple will be rebuilt on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem, and that Jesus will reign from this rebuilt Temple. How, exactly, do these folks believe that Islam is going to surrender its claim to the Temple Mount, tear down the Al-Aqsa Mosque, and clear out to let the Jews build atop one of their holiest sites?
     
    #2 PreachTony, Jan 23, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 23, 2015
  3. Revmitchell

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    All of the Bible is spiritual in nature. There is not genre called spiritual.
     
  4. OldRegular

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    Putting it mildly you don't understand the Book of Revelation; neither do you understand the words of Jesus Christ in John 5:28, 29. Revelation 20 does not follow chronologically Revelation 19. John 5:28, 29 teaches one general resurrection of all the dead and one judgment, the Great White Throne Judgment, at the return of Jesus Christ.

    John 5:28, 29
    28. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
    29. And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

    Revelation 20:11-15
    11. And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
    12. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
    13. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
    14. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
    15. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
     
  5. BobRyan

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    Many people will agree with that. So then Rev 4 is not chronologically beyond Rev 3. Still are small stories/sets in Revelation and within those stories the events are more or less chronological for example Rev 3-4, 5-6, 8-9, 12-13, 15-16, 19-22.

    So just because it is not entirely chronological does not mean there is no chronology at all in the book.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  6. PreachTony

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    I was merely warning against assuming chronological flow. I never said the entire book was disjointed.

    That being said, no, I don't believe that Rev 20 is a chronological follow-up to Rev 19.
     
  7. BobRyan

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    Was going to post the same thing about your review.

    Not true - John 5 teaches two resurrections one of the just and one of the unjust - and so the same writer in John 20 tells us that the righteous are in the first resurrection and the wicked are in the 2nd resurrection and that they are separated from each other by 1000 years.

    Between those two resurrections - you have the resurrection of all that are dead.



    John 5:28, 29
    28. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
    29. And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.



    Thus Paul can say he wants to
    "attain to the resurrection" because there is a specific one he wants to participate in.

    Phil 3

    10 That I may know him, and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
    11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

    Revelation 20:1-5


    Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand. 2 And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; 3 and he threw him into the abyss, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be released for a short time. 4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.



    5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.



    6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.


    Paul sought to "attain to" that specific resurrection - - the first resurrection... where the "Dead in Christ rise FIRST" 1Thess 4. Because it is only true of "these" that the "second death has no power"
     
  8. BobRyan

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    Revelation 7:9-17
    9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
    10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
    11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
    12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
    13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
    14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
    15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
    16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
    17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.



    There is "another option" between "the entire book is chronological" and
    "None of it is Chronological" --


    The middle between those two extremes is that there are chronological sequences as noted in my prior post on that point.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  9. PreachTony

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    Pretty sure that's a reference to a single resurrection. Paul references a single resurrection, as well.


    Yeah, the general resurrection! The resurrection at the last day! Same resurrection!

    Paul, in Thessalonians, says we will see the Lord coming for us, and the dead in Christ shall rise first, then we which are alive and remain will be caught up together with them, and so shall we ever be with the Lord. This, I've always understood in premil doctrine, happens prior to Christ setting up His kingdom. Yet Revelation 20:5 says the resurrection does not occur until AFTER the millennial kingdom of that doctrine. How does that work?
     
  10. PreachTony

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    I noted this in post #6. I never intended to claim none of Revelation was chronological. Some people I know have taken the book as purely chronological from start to finish and I don't see that in the text.
     
  11. BobRyan

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    Originally Posted by 1 Corinthians 15:19-28
    19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
    20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
    21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
    22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
    23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.


    Fits with "The Dead in Christ rise first" 1Thess 4.

    And fits with John's description of the "FIRST resurrection" in Rev 20:5-6 prior to the 1000 years ending.

    And fits with Christ's description in Matt 24 of gathering the saints at His return.

    The destruction of the wicked takes place starting at the 2nd coming with the destruction of all the living wicked - "The rest were destroyed" Rev 19 tells us.

    And the OT describes the earth at that time as formless and void city ruins, corpses from one end of heaven to the other - it says and "I looked and behold there was no man".

    Then after the 1000 years the "rest of the dead" -- the wicked coming to live and "over these" the second death DOES have power.


    24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
    25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
    26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
    27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
    28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.



    True "those that are Christ AT His Coming"

    Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

    After this comes the 2nd phase - that of the destruction of the living wicked at the 2nd coming -- then after the 1000 years all the wicked raised, judged and cast into the lake of fire.



    and then THE END. Christ hands over all things to the Father and the Father is fully recognized as All in All.



    It states that only the dead in Christ - only "those who are Christs" are raised "AT His Coming" -- and John provides even more detail as to how the wicked are raised and destroyed.

    Paul says nothing about the "Lake of Fire" event in 1Cor 15 -- other than the very highlevel statement of things subjected to Christ.

    Not taking the text at face value in such places risks undermining the value of the message in the scripture as all will recognize a literal earth, literal wicked, literal death, literal world, literal fire, literal devil, literal resurrection, literal judgment in Rev 20.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  12. BobRyan

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    Originally Posted by John 18:33-36
    33 Then Pilate entered into the judgment hall again, and called Jesus, and said unto him, Art thou the King of the Jews?
    34 Jesus answered him, Sayest thou this thing of thyself, or did others tell it thee of me?
    35 Pilate answered, Am I a Jew? Thine own nation and the chief priests have delivered thee unto me: what hast thou done?
    36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.



    No earthly temple rebuilt as a part of God's plan.

    No Millennial reign on earth.

    Nothing here but a destroyed earth, no saints, the wicked are all dead.

    Nothing left but Satan and his angels to roam the desolate earth.

    No nations of man to temp or deceive. Solitary confinement.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  13. BobRyan

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    This is a big indicator that Amill is wrong.

    You cannot "attain" to "breathing air as a living person" because all living people do it.

    All the dead will be resurrected. Paul wants to "if by any means ATTAIN" to a very specific resurrection.

    Phil 3

    10 That I may know him, and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
    11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

    And we all see that two resurrections are clearly stated in Rev 20 with all in the first resurrection not subject to the 2nd death.

    It is pretty hard to argue that Paul was not trying to attain to that specific resurrection.

    But if you ignore all those details and say that everyone is raised at the same time - the it is not the resurrection that Paul would seek 'if by any means to attain' but rather some part of the judgment.

    Big red flag for Amill.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  14. Revmitchell

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    No premiller believes Jesus will reign from the rebuilt temple. No premilller believes that the rebuilt temple is part of God's plan. It is however, part of Israel's plan only because they do not believe the Messiah has come yet. While it is part of future history that does not assign it to God's plan. Please do not conflate the two.
     
  15. OldRegular

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    There are only two resurrection events in Scripture. The First Resurrection and only resurrection to date is that of Jesus Christ. The second resurrection is the general resurrection of all the dead as Jesus Christ states in John 5:28, 29

    28. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
    29. And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.


    Now people can dance around this passage all they want if it makes them happy. But the truth is that Jesus Christ states that THE HOUR IS COMING IN THE WHICH ALL THAT ARE IN THE GRAVES SHALL HEAR HIS VOICE AND SHALL COME FORTH.

    He doesn't say the hours or the times or the eras or anything but THE HOUR IS COMING. Best I recall IS is singular! That means one resurrection.
     
  16. PreachTony

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    Thank you for clarifying. I can only speak to experience with the premil folks I know, and that's the stance they took, hence my relating it here. That was part of the doctrine they stressed when we would talk about it. I welcome anyone further explaining things. Thanks, Rev.
     
  17. Revmitchell

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    Not discounting your experience, what you said is often a miscaricature of our position. It is common and it is wrong.

    We do believe the temple will be rebuilt but not because it is God's plan. It will be rebuilt because of Israel and their rejection of Jesus as the Messiah. premill's do not look for that with excitement because we believe it will be an important part of worship. We look at it as another sign of what is to come. Otherwise we do not care much about the temple.

    Jesus will not rule from the temple He will rule from the throne of David.

    Jeremiah 23:5-6, 2 Samuel 7:13, 15-16.
     
  18. PreachTony

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    I understand. I hope you know that it was not meant as a purposeful mischaracterization of your position. Now that I know, I won't use that statement in discussion. Again, thanks for the explanation.
     
  19. BobRyan

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    Until you notice that in Rev 20 the first and 2nd resurrections are in the future - and those who 'reign with Christ" are raised in what the Bible calls the "first resurrection".

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  20. Revmitchell

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    Sure, no worries.
     

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