Why I left Calvinism after 10 years...

I have not twisted anything, and I resent your insinuations.

On the other hand, please do research on context and such before quoting the standard Arminian quotes, thank you.

 

Im not sure what you mean here, but I like it. Part of searching is looking beyond the first glance that most want to cherish and not question. This doesnt mean all first glances are wrong, but I have found that many times I totally missed the point and the original language, styles of speaking, context, etc... I think this is a cause of trouble, when we are so sure that we dont need to look any deeper.... Its like saying, "Im saved" and when doubts come you go shrivle into a corner until the burden leaves instead of search your heart in Scripture. sorry, this may be off topic, but good stuff IMO

 

Scripture states man is in hell for failure to have faith in God's Son (John 3:18). Man cannot pay the penalty for the sin Christ already has.

 

the issue with context is yours and I have never met an arminian

 

Its easier to watch TV for 8 hours than actually read the bible for 5 minutes:BangHead:

you probably will get some good responses to this, hehe

 

This could be a long drawn out subject because...

You say that Christ paid for all sin that ever was in the world on the cross. That the real reason people go to hell isnt because they are going to bear their own sin, but because they have rejected Christ. (I do agree that rejecting of Christ is a sense in which everyone goes to hell, but its not the real reason)

anyway I say that...

I say Christ paid for only those who he elects from eternity past and that His mission was to buy them by paying their sin in full on the cross. People go to hell because they are under the condemnation of their sin and will remain in that condemnation for a righteous judgment unless they are rescued by Christ. This could have a more in depth explanation.

but..

we both agree that unless people turn to Christ and repent because they are in sin, however that may be.

Maybe we can leave it here for now, although I do find this a deep and good subject.

 

Exactly, how much do we care for those that know not Christ.

Populating heaven Is that not positive.

 

Ann, I am in agreement with you here. I really am. Man of himself, will never seek God. It is only by God's word that a man can know of God. And God's word is a work of the Holy Spirit. But unsaved men can hear and believe the word of God. He has that ability. He also has free will and can resist the Holy Spirit. He can go either way. I showed that with the story of Cain. God spoke to him, so as always, you always first see the word of God. But God himself said Cain could give an acceptable sacrifice, or he could choose to do otherwise. Cain had a choice and was responsible for the choice he made.

Gen 4:6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

And notice the last part of verse 7. God said sin would desire Cain, but Cain would rule over sin. Calvinism teaches the exact opposite, that sin rules over man. But God said man is in control, and does not have to yield to sin.

There are several examples of unsaved men seeking God in the scriptures. The rich young ruler was unsaved yet sought eternal life. And we know he was not regenerated to have this desire, because he went away unsaved.

Mark 10:17 And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?
18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.
19 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.
20 And he answered and said unto him, Master, all these have I observed from my youth.
21 Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.
22 And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions.

Notice in verse 17 that this young man ran to Jesus. Now, think about that. This fellow was not only rich, he was a ruler. Important people do not often run after others, especially a poor preacher like Jesus. But this young man ran to Jesus showing his great desire. He kneeled down showing his great respect and called Jesus "Good Master". He knew the scriptures and even tried to obey them.

But he was unsaved, and went away unsaved. So this passage totally disproves the Calvinistic concept of Total Depravity in every way. He showed desire, he showed respect, he knew and understood scripture, but he was unsaved.

 

Yeah, right. Everybody else is wrong, but you...

Really ? lol. You're with him everyday, you sleep with him, you shower with him, you're on the web with him, you look for issues in politics with him.

Take a look at the mirror.

 

How does he know everybody here is saved? I am not a betting man, but if I were, I would bet there are quite a few unsaved folks here on this forum.

 

He doesn't, and that's the point. Given as Rev feels that the believer's job is to help populate heaven, then he's loafing, not doing his job which he says everybody should be doing.

And therein is the basic difference.

Jesus did what He intended to do, what His Father sent Him to do, redeem His elect, and save His people from their sins, with His blood, with His finished work on the cross, covering all His people from the beginning of time to the end of time, in all points of the globe, in this plane called time.

Eternal redemption is finished, the work of eternal salvation is finished, complete, nothing lacking, if there was anything lacking Jesus won't enter Heaven by His blood, and He has no business sitting, relaxing, at the right hand of power.

But the fact is He is.

The job of those in the ministry is to evangelize those for whom the gospel is intended, God's people. Instruct. Educate. Teach. Lead. and save in the gospel sense those that are caught in the grip of false doctrine.

 

The problem with this is, you are saying Jesus only redeemed the elect. But the scriptures say Jesus bought every man.

2 Pet 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

This very verse is speaking of unsaved men. They are heretics. They are damned, and they are preaching damnable heresies. They are bringing swift destruction upon themselves. They are not the elect.

But Jesus bought them, he paid for them with his blood just as he bought and paid for the elect with his blood.

And this is where we disagree. We believe Jesus died for all men, you believe Jesus only died for the elect. Huge difference.

 

Given your vehement content, it's clear the insecurity is yours. I have no particular problem with a Christian's calvinistic or arminian position differing from mine. That person is just as faithful of an adherent to scripture as me. You don't share that position with those who disagree with you on the topic. There's nothing for anyone to recant from.

 

I would disagree, I would call them religions. They are belief systems. This is why I do not enjoy it when Calvinists call me an Arminian. I do share some of the beliefs of Arminism, but not all. I do not believe you can lose your salvation as some Arminians believe. But I also do not agree with Calvinists either. They believe in the Perserverence of Saints, I believe in the Preservation of the Saints.

Skandelon, I hope you will continue to share how you came out of Calvinism with us. What I am particularly interested in is how this took place. Was it certain passages of scripture that caused you to first question this, was it the writings of certain men, experiences? How long did it take? What went through your mind?

I know this is a lot to ask, but I find it extremely interesting. To change one's mindset is a fantastic thing. This is what I personally am interested in if you have the time.