Why I left the RCC

Did you ever go to Mass in those 23 years? Did you stay awake? Did you pay attention?

If so, how can you possibly claim to being so ignorant of the Bible?

[ September 13, 2002, 02:25 PM: Message edited by: trying2understand ]

 

Hmm.. My whole family is Roman Catholic, and they're all saved, and we all got saved in catholic church. In fact, it was a Catholic priest who got me to accept CHrist, and he was the principle of a large Catholic high school. He's a bishop now in the midwest somewhere, I think.

I'm no longer a Catholic (i preferred non-liturgical worship services), but just cause I left doesn't mean everyone should.

Interesting how, when someone comes to a Baptist church from another denomination, they've "seen the light", but when someone leaves the Baptists for another denomination, we should be concerned for them somehow. You'd think we Biptists were the only ones going to heaven or something. THe Calvary Chapel folks may think that about themselves, but we shouldn't.

 

Well, at least I now know why you are so venomous towards Christ's Bride. What is it with you X Catholics that you turn on the Church with an absolue FURY which defies description?

Who's fault was it that you had never read the Bible? Are YOU not responsible for your own soul? Are you telling me that you never heard the readings at Mass? You NEVER wondered enough to go ask the priest about them or where to find them for further study?

About that time I ran into a young man named Mike Townsend took me under his wing and showed me thing I never knew was in the the Bible.

In other words, he gave you HIS interpretation. Don't you find it interesting to know that if Mr. Townsend was a Presbyterian Calvinist, you would most likely be one of those right now. Or a 7th Day Adventist. Or an Episcopalian.

You see, you can "prove" just about anything from the Bible, including all the whacked out interpretations you find on the Internet. Look at some of these FRUITCAKES!! Gowan, check it out!!! And they ALL use the Bible to justify their whacked out beliefs.

Man, you were just naive and ready for the pluckin', guy. If you had met the right Catholic at that time, he could have steered you right back into the Church and made a wonderful Catholic out of you. You could have inspired others to change their lives.

I believe that it was God helping me to follow him.

And I don't. God doesn't help people OUT of His Church. I think you met someone who had his own agenda rather than God's and you fell for it!!

It was hard leaving all the work the tradition. But thought Gods word and the Holy Ghost which in all true believers now stand saved by Grace alone.

Interesting, because a little over a year ago, I was told by the Spirit of God to join St. Ann's parish.

One of us has a serious problem, and since Catholic and Orthodox belief predates your system by almost 2000 years, I don't think I'm the one.

Brother Ed

 

And you were talking of fury and venom of XCatholics??

 

e

Exactly which words were fury and venom?

Ed is right. You can make the bible prove anything you want. Just pick and choose the verses that you think support your beliefs. Say this and that are symbolic. Say this word or that word is mistranslated. How can you deny that? And we have all seen some very whacky beliefs that are defended in just that way.

Ed is right. If John3v36 had talked to a Catholic in the same way that he talked to someone else he very well could have ended up embracing the Church instead of rejecting it. Where is the fury in that?

John3v36 sounds like he sleep walked through his faith formation years and when he finally woke up he had to blame someone. Certainly it couldn't have been his fault. I mean we are not each responsible for our own spiritual condition, now are we?

 

Grammy --

Yes, the Church is the Bride of Christ. The "universal" (or catholic) Church, made up of people who believe those things which have been believed by all people, everywhere, at all times.

I would say that 85 - 90% of what y'all non Catholics believe as good doctrine came from the universal Church. Think on it:

Bodily resurrection

Judgement Seat and Final Judgement

The many teachings on the natures of Christ.

The Trinity.

The Lord's Supper (regardless of your understanding of it)

Baptism (by immersion in the Early Church!!)

And many other things.

Yes, there are things we disagree on, but the most part, you folks are believing what the Church decided in councils and passed down from generation to generation.

Hey DHK --

Where's the fury? Did you READ the article? Are those people NUTS or what? And they are NOT part of my old denomination. The whole point of the "fruitcake" article was to show what private interpretation does and how it leads to severe problems.

But yeah, I do have a case against those people who LIED to me. You see, their willing lies kept me out of the Orthodox Catholic Faith for over 20 years. I was told the most astounding nonsense and never once told the whole story or given the whole picture. I honestly thought that the Church was Fundamentalist. Then when I converted, I thought it was Presbyterian.

HAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

Of course, yeah, it's part my fault, just like it is the fault of those who leave the Catholic Church of our Lord for non Catholic religion. Each one of us is responsible to SEEK the Lord and ask questions in our search for His truth. So ultimately, I can only blame myself for not saying

"Hey, Bob Jones says these folks are idol worshippers. I think I'm going to find out for myself."

Naw.....I just swallowed the swill -- hook, line, and sinker!!

But honestly, aren't some of those guys NUTZ!!!

Brother Ed

 

I have posed this question many times before but with no satisfactory answer. If we are to believe only the Bible and not sacred tradition then show me scripture which states this.

Jesus condemed man made traditions and if sola scriptura is not in the bible then it is man made.

If sola scriptura is what we are to believe, why did it not shows its ugly head till 1500's.

What are the fruits of sola scriptura and private interpretation.... schism and disunity which Jesus prayed to prevent.

Jesus never commanded anyone to write anything down, Jesus did command his apostles to preach the gospel, not write down the gospel, preaching is oral teaching. The gospel is also what Jesus taught and did. We know from the last chapter of John that everything Jesus did is can not be contained in books. This would indicate that what is written in the Bible is not all of what Jesus did. I know you will say that these other things are not important... tell me where it says that in the Bible.

Yours in Christ
Daniel

 

I went to the site and read a good part of it. It looks like a good Catholic revisionist site. If you want the Catholic spin on it you can go there. The first quotes were from a Calvinist, highly misunderstood by your friend the Catholic. But always there for a good laugh when you Catholics don't understand the Scriptures. I've noticed that a lot lately. You can't answer a question about the Bible, so you poke fun or be sarcastic. That is the demeanor of the website you referred us to. It basically gave a lot of information about the Catholic Church, the Catholic Church didn't like it, so it turned around and poked fun at it. That's always easier to do then reading a Bible and giving a Biblical refutation. But the Catholics I know don't read Bibles. They don't know the difference between Chronicles and Corinthians. They don't use Bibles. Never did.
DHK

 

I remember answering this question for you Daniel. Why don't you accept our answers when we give them? I have given Scripture on this before.
DHK

 

The answer I saw was a real stretch to prove sola scriptura, but I guess since you have private interpretation or do was call it "free liberty"

My godness and they say us Catholics invent doctrine, show me "free liberty" in the Bible.

Yours in Christ
Daniel

 

I have to admit you hear this a lot from Catholics and ex-Catholics. EVen in the book "The Faith Explained" a commentary on the Baltimore Catechism post-Vatican II -- when it deals with scripture reading - the authors comment on the derth of Bible reading among Catholics.

But the "reason" for it is clear. The system is setup such that if you go directly to the source you are taking the "unwise path". In the end - tradition trumps scripture so simply finding a doctrinal conviction in scripture is not good enough to establish truth. Why go any more - just get the tradition and leave it to the "experts" to read the Bible "for you".

Why would a patient want to study medicine if they already have a good doctor. You could study but then you would probably "Get it wrong" so let the doctor do it for you and do it right.

Makes sense if you accept the Catholic assumptions.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Do you mean the right of the individual believer to interpret Scripture for himself? It's a little late now, but I'll take a crack at that one tomorrow, if this is indeed what you mean.

 

Easy - Mark 7:1-10


"In vain do they worship Me - teaching for doctrine the commandments of Men... Neglecting the Commandments of God you Hold to the Traditions of Men"

"To the LAw and to the Testimony if they speak NOT according to THIS WORD there is no light in them" Isaiah 8:20

The Catholic church identifies the "Great Schism" NOT as the rift between small bands of Catholic reformers (protestants) and the armies that pursued them. But Instead it is a reference for 3 armies of Catholics slaughtering each other - each following their own Pope until all three Popal lines were terminated by the Emperor's council - established with having HIGHER authority than any reigning Pope.

That was the result of no-scriptura available to the masses.

In Paul's teaching and ministry we find this commendation for the pagan listeners methods

"They Searched the scriptures DAILY to SEE IF those things spoken by Paul - were SO" Acts 17:11

This model is anathema to many Catholics and yet the Apostle Paul - an says "These were MORE nobleminded than those in Thessalonica". Praise for checking to see IF the teaching of Paul "Was So" and what were they "checking" ?? "The Scriptures".

There is not one single priest or Cardinal or nun or monk teaching Catholics the verbal words of Christ saying "I heard someone say that someone said that someone said they heard, that someone else said.... that they heard Christ say..".

Your argument ends as it appeals to the verbal words of Christ - when in fact your ONLY access to ANYTHING He said is via scripture or via someone that READ scripture FOR you.

In Christ,

Bob

[ September 14, 2002, 08:43 AM: Message edited by: BobRyan ]

 

Your original question had to do with “sola scriptura.” You are now confusing that with “soul liberty.” These are two different baptist distinctives, the first one better defined as: "Scripture being the final authority in all matters of faith and practice."
Soul liberty is the right to believe as one chooses in his heart to believe. Our fathers fought for such freedoms, and the Catholic Church would deny them?? I have lived in an Islamic nation where persecution of Christians and forced conversions is common. Catholicism is similar to Islam in this way. It does not want its adherents to have the freedom to believe anything other than its mullahs or priests tell them. That is what the magesterium is for. The true Catholic is a zombie, force-fed the catechism by his superiors and not allowed the freedom to think for himself. All the thinking is done for him by the Catholic Church. There is no soul liberty, no freedom of religion. The Spanish Inquisition speaks for itself here, as well as the reign of Bloody Mary, another zealous Catholic.

2Pe 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
--The Scripture is not of any private interpretation. The Catholic Church claims that it has the only true interpretation of Scripture. It's interpretation therefore is a private interpretation. No one else is allowed to disagree with it. No one has the soul liberty to disagree with it inspite of the numerous commands in Scripture to study the Bible, to search it, to read it, to use it as one's final authority.

Ac 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
--Paul called the Bereans noble. Why? Because they used the Scriptures as their final authority. They did not take Paul at his word, in spite of the great and godly man that he was. They searched the Scriptures first. That was their authority. If what Paul had to say lined up with the Scriptures, then they accepted it. Paul called them noble. It was the right thing to do.

Isa 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.
--Isaiah appeals to Scripture as the final authority. If they speak not according to this WORD, it is because there is no light in them. The appeal is NEVER made to tradition, the magesterium, the Church, the pope, etc. It is always made to the Word of God. It alone is our authority.
DHK

 

Sometimes I wonder about you guys. In all my years I never , ever, ever, ever, met a Roman Catholic ( and believe me I know quite a few up here in Catholicville) I never met a Catholic who enjoyed going to mass. They mainly do it out of duty.

 

"Take away, indeed, from the heretics the wisdom which they share with the heathen, and let them support their inquiries from the Scriptures alone they will then be unable to keep their ground"

Treatise on the Resurrection, Chapter 3.
Tertullian 220 AD.


"Scripture alone offers clear knowledge on the questions we have been controverting"

Treatise on the Soul, Chapter 26.
Tertullian 220 AD.

HankD

[ September 14, 2002, 10:45 AM: Message edited by: HankD ]

 

So...everyone has the right "to believe as one chooses in his heart to believe".....UNLESS THEY ARE CATHOLIC, AND BELIEVE CATHOLIC DOCTRINES. Then they are absoluetly wrong, and shouldn't even be considered Christians, right?

I love this blind contradiction. But, of course, you'll say since I'm obediant to the Pope, I forfeit that right, or some made up, nonsensical answer. God bless you DHK, but you are as blind as a bat.

I love how you can believe what you want to and this is considered "correct," but I don't have that same right. I'm sure God smiles upon this attitude.