Why?!?!?!?! If he knew we would choose wrong

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by FARWALKER, Apr 20, 2015.

  1. FARWALKER

    FARWALKER
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    I know this is probably the most asked question of all time or at least in the top ten but I will ask it anyway. I would also like to thank you for your graciousness for any insight or input you have.

    Why did God create His universe, humanity, all that comes with it, place man in The Garden and put the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, KNOWING THEY WOULD FAIL?

    Why does He allow the horrible thing that happen, to happen?!!

    Two distinctly different questions.

    Please help.
    I think this is the right forum, I hope:BangHead::BangHead::BangHead:
    Tim
     
  2. robustheologian

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    Everything was made to give God glory (Psalm 145:10)...even sinners (Prov. 16:4).
     
  3. Darrell C

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    Great questions.

    Question One: from an eternal perspective the Lord designed to create a people, and just as people own dogs for specific reasons, even so the Lord understood the creative process to reach the desired result. That might sound strange but consider that most people get a dog for the purpose of relationship. This is not always true, as there are those who train dogs for services such as seeking out drugs, seeing eye dogs, or even hunting dogs.

    So let me ask you, have you ever owned a dog? If so, did you go get one fully trained who would obey your every command? Or did you get a pup you knew full well would be trouble? Would chew on stuff he wasn't supposed to. Relieve himself in places not very convenient. Bring about a necessity for you to care for his welfare?

    Not a suitable analogy, but one I think hints at why the Lord would go through the trouble to reach the end result which is a people that love Him and are united with Him on a spiritual and eternal basis.

    He could have just created people that way, but, seeing that every created being is not God, therefore fallible and the expected result failure (remember the Angels), this would be almost expecting the impossible. It would be requiring God to create more gods who were as infallible, righteous, and holy as He is. There is only One God.

    But like most people do not go out and get mature, well trained dogs, but get pups with which a relationship and bond is created and grows, even so the Lord chose this course to prepare for Himself a people.


    Question Two:

    The question is better, why hasn't God just scratched everything and started over? For the same reason given above.

    "Horrible things" happen as a result of sin. "Good things" happen also. Neither can be specifically attributed to God's intervention or lack thereof. I view history as running in it's natural course, in which at times the Lord does in fact intervene, and sometimes, usually, actually, when He does horrible things can be seen to happen.

    We think judgment for sin is "horrible" because we do not recognize the vast difference between a Holy God and our own unholy tendencies. When God decimated the Canaanites in judgment for idolatry, our tendency is to assume a morally higher position than God, see this as horrible, and forget that God will eternally punish men for sin.

    We forget that this same God has also, in every Age, provided a means of escape from punishment, both in the temporal as well as the eternal. In the temporal, He had provided a means of temporary atonement through shedding of blood that was not the blood of the sinner. What that means is that God postponed death for the sinner and made provision by which life could be maintained. This temporary atonement extended into the eternal perspective in that those who were obedient to that provision, by faith, were bestowed grace that also postponed eternal judgment.

    So if we look at this question from an eternal perspective, we are forced to consider it a question that considers only the temporal understanding of the course of history and the consequences of sin. We might say, "If I were God then I wouldn't have allowed this," or, "I wouldn't have done that." And any time we take this perspective we either lower God to our standard, or raise ourselves to God's, both of which are error.

    We blame God for "horrible things" when the truth is the blame can almost always be levied on men. We cannot blame God for those times when He does not intervene to avert tragedy, but the truth is...we can never know the times He does this.

    So how can we even begin to deny He does? lol

    Hope that helps.


    God bless.
     
  4. annsni

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    Question: "If God knew that Adam and Eve would sin, why did He create them?"

    Answer: The Bible says that God created all things—including us—for Himself. He is glorified in His creation. “From him and through him and for him are all things. To him be the glory forever! Amen” (Romans 11:36).

    It may be hard to see how Adam and Eve’s falling into sin could bring glory to God. In fact, some might even wonder why, if God knew ahead of time all the trouble they would cause, He made them in the first place.

    God is omniscient (Psalm 139:1–6), and He knows the future (Isaiah 46:10). So He definitely knew that Adam and Eve would sin. But He created them anyway and gave them a free will with which they chose to sin.

    We must carefully note that Adam and Eve’s falling into sin does not mean that God is the author of sin or that He tempted them to sin (James 1:13). But the fall does serve the purpose of God’s overall plan for creation and mankind.

    If we consider what some theologians call the “meta-narrative” (or overarching storyline) of Scripture, we see that biblical history can be roughly divided into three main sections: 1) paradise (Genesis 1—2); 2) paradise lost (Genesis 3Revelation 20); and 3) paradise regained (Revelation 21—22). By far the largest part of the narrative is devoted to the transition from paradise lost to paradise regained. At the center of this meta-narrative is the cross, which was planned from the very beginning (Acts 2:23). “The Lamb . . . was slain from the creation of the world” (Revelation 13:8).

    Reading Scripture carefully, we are led to the following conclusions:
    1. The fall of mankind was foreknown by God.
    2. The crucifixion of Christ, the atonement for God’s elect, was foreordained by God.
    3. All people will one day glorify God (Psalm 86:9), and God purposes “to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ” (Ephesians 1:10).

    God’s purpose was to create a world in which His glory could be manifest in all its fullness. The glory of God is the overarching goal of creation. In fact, it is the overarching goal of everything He does. The universe was created to display God’s glory (Psalm 19:1), and the wrath of God is revealed against those who fail to glorify God (Romans 1:23). The world that best displays the glory of God is the world we have—a world that was allowed to fall, a world that was redeemed, a world that will be restored to its original perfection.

    God’s wrath and God’s mercy display the riches of His glory, but we cannot see either without the fall of mankind. We would never know grace if we had never needed grace. Therefore, all of God’s plan—including the fall, election, redemption, and atonement of mankind—serves the purpose of glorifying God. When man fell into sin, God’s mercy was immediately displayed in God’s not killing him on the spot. God’s grace was immediately evident in the covering He provided for their shame (Genesis 3:21). God’s patience and forbearance were later on display as mankind fell deeper and deeper into sin. God’s justice and wrath were on display when He sent the flood, and God’s mercy and grace were again demonstrated when He saved Noah and his family. God’s holy wrath and perfect justice will be seen in the future when He deals with Satan once and for all (Revelation 20:7–10).

    God’s glory is also revealed in His love (1 John 4:16). Our knowledge of God’s love comes from the Person and saving work of Jesus Christ in this fallen world. “This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him” (1 John 4:9). Had God decided not to create Adam and Eve, based on His knowledge of their fall—or had He made them automatons with no volition—we would never have truly known what love is.

    The ultimate exhibition of God’s glory was at the cross where His wrath, justice, and mercy met. The righteous judgment of all sin was executed at the cross, and God’s grace was on display in His Son’s words, “Father, forgive them” (Luke 23:34). God’s love and grace are manifest in those whom He has saved (John 3:16; Ephesians 2:8–9). In the end, God will be glorified as His chosen people worship Him for all eternity with the angels, and the wicked will also glorify God as His righteousness results in the eternal punishment of unrepentant sinners (Philippians 2:11). Without the fall of Adam and Eve, we would never know God’s justice, grace, mercy, or love.

    Some raise the objection that God’s foreknowledge and foreordination of the fall damages man’s freedom. In other words, if God created mankind with full knowledge of the impending fall into sin, how can man be responsible for his sin? The best answer to that question can be found in the Westminster Confession of Faith:

    “God, from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established” (WFC, III.1)

    In other words, God ordains future events in such a way that our freedom and the working of secondary causes (e.g., laws of nature) are preserved. Theologians call this “concurrence.” God’s sovereign will flows concurrently with our free choices in such a way that our free choices always result in the carrying out of God’s will (by “free” we mean that our choices are not coerced by outside influences). It’s a complex interaction of wills and choices, but the Creator God can handle any amount of complexity.

    God foresaw Adam and Eve’s fall. He created them anyway, in His own image, to bring glory to Himself. They were given freedom to make choices. Even though they chose to disobey, their choice became the means by which God’s ultimate will was carried out and by which His full glory will be seen.

    Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/if-God-knew-Adam-Eve-sin.html#ixzz3XxGIvWqq
     
  5. annsni

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    Question: "Why does God allow evil?"

    Answer: The Bible describes God as holy (Isaiah 6:3), righteous (Psalm 7:11), just (Deuteronomy 32:4), and sovereign (Daniel 4:17-25). These attributes tell us the following about God: (1) God is capable of preventing evil, and (2) God desires to rid the universe of evil. So, if both of these are true, why does God allow evil? If God has the power to prevent evil and desires to prevent evil, why does He still allow evil? Perhaps a practical way to look at this question would be to consider some alternative ways people might have God run the world:

    1) God could change everyone’s personality so that they cannot sin. This would also mean that we would not have a free will. We would not be able to choose right or wrong because we would be “programmed” to only do right. Had God chosen to do this, there would be no meaningful relationships between Him and His creation.

    Instead, God made Adam and Eve innocent but with the ability to choose good or evil. Because of this, they could respond to His love and trust Him or choose to disobey. They chose to disobey. Because we live in a real world where we can choose our actions but not their consequences, their sin affected those who came after them (us). Similarly, our decisions to sin have an impact on us and those around us and those who will come after us.

    2) God could compensate for people’s evil actions through supernatural intervention 100 percent of the time. God would stop a drunk driver from causing an automobile accident. God would stop a lazy construction worker from doing a substandard job on a house that would later cause grief to the homeowners. God would stop a father who is addicted to drugs or alcohol from doing any harm to his wife, children, or extended family. God would stop gunmen from robbing convenience stores. God would stop high school bullies from tormenting the brainy kids. God would stop thieves from shoplifting. And, yes, God would stop terrorists from flying airplanes into buildings.

    While this solution sounds attractive, it would lose its attractiveness as soon as God’s intervention infringed on something we wanted to do. We want God to prevent horribly evil actions, but we are willing to let “lesser-evil” actions slide—not realizing that those “lesser-evil” actions are what usually lead to the “greater-evil” actions. Should God only stop actual sexual affairs, or should He also block our access to pornography or end any inappropriate, but not yet sexual, relationships? Should God stop “true” thieves, or should He also stop us from cheating on our taxes? Should God only stop murder, or should He also stop the “lesser-evil” actions done to people that lead them to commit murder? Should God only stop acts of terrorism, or should He also stop the indoctrination that transformed a person into a terrorist?

    3) Another choice would be for God to judge and remove those who choose to commit evil acts. The problem with this possibility is that there would be no one left, for God would have to remove us all. We all sin and commit evil acts (Romans 3:23; Ecclesiastes 7:20; 1 John 1:8). While some people are more evil than others, where would God draw the line? Ultimately, all evil causes harm to others.

    Instead of these options, God has chosen to create a “real” world in which real choices have real consequences. In this real world of ours, our actions affect others. Because of Adam’s choice to sin, the world now lives under the curse, and we are all born with a sin nature (Romans 5:12). There will one day come a time when God will judge the sin in this world and make all things new, but He is purposely “delaying” in order to allow more time for people to repent so that He will not need to condemn them (2 Peter 3:9). Until then, He IS concerned about evil. When He created the Old Testament laws, the goal was to discourage and punish evil. He judges nations and rulers who disregard justice and pursue evil. Likewise, in the New Testament, God states that it is the government’s responsibility to provide justice in order to protect the innocent from evil (Romans 13). He also promises severe consequences for those who commit evil acts, especially against the "innocent" (Mark 9:36-42).

    In summary, we live in a real world where our good and evil actions have direct consequences and indirect consequences upon us and those around us. God’s desire is that for all of our sakes we would obey Him that it might be well with us (Deuteronomy 5:29). Instead, what happens is that we choose our own way, and then we blame God for not doing anything about it. Such is the heart of sinful man. But Jesus came to change men’s hearts through the power of the Holy Spirit, and He does this for those who will turn from evil and call on Him to save them from their sin and its consequences (2 Corinthians 5:17). God does prevent and restrain some acts of evil. This world would be MUCH WORSE were not God restraining evil. At the same time, God has given us the ability to choose good and evil, and when we choose evil, He allows us, and those around us, to suffer the consequences of evil. Rather than blaming God and questioning God on why He does not prevent all evil, we should be about the business of proclaiming the cure for evil and its consequences—Jesus Christ!


    Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/God-allow-evil.html#ixzz3XxGhGsLI
     
  6. Baptist Believer

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    God wants humankind to reign with Him. (Genesis 1:26-29; Revelation 22:5) It is what we have been created to do.

    In order to have personhood and to reign (exercise authority), one has to have a will (the power of creative action). In exercising that will, we have the ability to rebel against the authority of God (sin).

    Your question overemphasizes something - you characterize God's creation of humankind as a failure. It is not a failure, it is becoming, and will become, a magnificent success! Sure, humankind has sinned against God and each other - and that is truly a horrible and destructive thing - but God can handle it. God is redeeming all of the evil that humankind has done through Jesus. Of course, only though who enter into the Kingdom (Reign) of God will be sustained eternally (have eternal life) and the rest will perish (John 3:16).

    There is coming a day when all of humankind will have gone through the refiner's fire and will be free moral agents who have permanently and intentionally committed themselves to the reign of God and will reign with Him forever. Those who reject God's offer will have already perished. Justice will reign and evil will simply not exist for all of those who commit evil will be consumed in the Lake of Fire (Revelation 21:8).
     
    #6 Baptist Believer, Apr 21, 2015
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2015
  7. kyredneck

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    When all this is over and done with, when time is no more, every creature in the universe will know that there can be only One Will.
     
  8. Van

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    1) Whenever a question like your question #1 is asked, we must search scripture to see if God has given us the answer. Otherwise the answer is simply the speculation of uninspired men. Lets boil down question one to "Why did God arrange for the fall of man? When a man repents and turns to God, he brings glory to God. And when a fallen man repents and turns to God he brings more glory to God. So the answer is simple, in order to glorify God. Recall the story of Gideon? Where God kept reducing the size of Gideon's army, in order that the victory would bring more glory to God? Same idea, when we repent from a fallen state, that brings even more glory to God.

    2) Why does God allow horrible things to happen? Again, the answer is simple, to encourage us in our fallen state to seek God as a refuge. Now some say God causes everything, and no one ever seeks God, but those mistaken views are a topic for another thread. Lets just assume God does allow horrible things to happen to encourage some to seek God as a refuge.
    Here you can look at Psalm 14. Read from verse 1 through verse six. ​

    And as a footnote, lets consider your classification of things adverse to you or other humans as horrible. Very true. But are they horrible when viewed from the Creator's point of view if they serve His purpose of choosing a people for His possession? Nope. Lets consider two problems:
    1) Why does God allow the harsh environment, such as the wave that killed more than 200,000 people. Our life is short and uncertain, where a lightning strike or flood, or earthquake might harm us or our loved ones. Thus we seek the eternal security of God.

    Second, why does God allow the evil that people do, which brings harm to us and our loved ones? Again, unless we are able to make autonomous decisions, such as repenting and turning to God, we could not bring glory to God. But the other side of that coin, is we must also be able to make decisions not in the will of God. So in order to fulfill God's purpose in creation, the ability of people to go against God's will is required.​
     
    #8 Van, Apr 21, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 21, 2015
  9. tyndale1946

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    I agree and add this from Isaiah!... Brother Glen

    Isaiah 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,

    10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

    11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.
     
  10. kyredneck

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    AMEN! :thumbs:
     
  11. robustheologian

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    I think everyone missed this.

     
  12. kyredneck

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    Ok. Your scripture is duly noted and agreed with. :)
     
  13. robustheologian

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    Thanks :wavey:
     
  14. quantumfaith

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    Great response.
     
  15. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast
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    FARWALKER

    God has a plan that does not fail.

    9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

    10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

    11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

    He has made it known to the church.

    He is long-suffering so that all those He has elected to salvation would be born into this world and then saved.
    22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

    23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

    24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

    8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

    9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

    10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

    11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

    12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

    13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

    14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

    15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

    16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

    17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
     
  16. convicted1

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    Everyone has given good responses....everything is to do with glorifying God as who He is....

    Psalm 19

    The heavens declare the glory of God,
    and the sky above proclaims his handiwork.
    Day to day pours out speech,
    and night to night reveals knowledge.
    There is no speech, nor are there words,
    whose voice is not heard.
    Their voice goes out through all the earth,
    and their words to the end of the world.
    In them he has set a tent for the sun,
    which comes out like a bridegroom leaving his chamber,
    and, like a strong man, runs its course with joy.
    Its rising is from the end of the heavens,
    and its circuit to the end of them,
    and there is nothing hidden from its heat.


    The law of the Lord is perfect,
    reviving the soul;
    the testimony of the Lord is sure,
    making wise the simple;
    the precepts of the Lord are right,
    rejoicing the heart;
    the commandment of the Lord is pure,
    enlightening the eyes;
    the fear of the Lord is clean,
    enduring forever;
    the rules of the Lord are true,
    and righteous altogether.
    More to be desired are they than gold,
    even much fine gold;
    sweeter also than honey
    and drippings of the honeycomb.
    Moreover, by them is your servant warned;
    in keeping them there is great reward.


    Who can discern his errors?
    Declare me innocent from hidden faults.
    Keep back your servant also from presumptuous sins;
    let them not have dominion over me!
    Then I shall be blameless,
    and innocent of great transgression.


    Let the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart
    be acceptable in your sight,
    O Lord, my rock and my redeemer.
     
  17. Rebel

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    I don't believe that the purpose of sinners is to glorify God. I don't believe that people going to hell glorifies God. The teaching is as perverse as anything that has ever been invented.
     
  18. Iconoclast

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    Hello Rebel,

    Consider this that all the judgements of God in scripture are used to protect and eternally preserve the godly line to the praise of God's glorious justice....

    The saints [multitudes of them] all understand this in heaven....

    remember the question asked in REv6...gets answered in rev 19


    9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

    10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

    11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.


    This was ordained to Happen...and it does-

    19 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

    2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.

    3 And again they said, Alleluia And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.

    4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.

    5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.

    6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

    7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

    8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

    9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.


    Why would you not believe what John has already seen and testified to us?

    No one likes to see other people cast into hell as we are also flesh and blood, however....when you think it out.....most likely, most all head cutting Isis members, Hitler types, Gangster types, pedophiles, religious apostates, all have a place there.

    :wavey::wavey::wavey:
     
  19. percho

    percho
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    In, "hope."
     
  20. percho

    percho
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    For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope;

    Romans 8:20 NKJV
     

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