Why I'm no longer a Calvinist:

Stop projecting onto me...

I'm the one who brought up the Holy Spirit, who makes the words on the page something other than "static."

Spirit and Life from God? How else is there Spirit and Life?

Are you actually ascribing life to mere words without the power of the Holy Spirit? Of course, you have to... Otherwise, as I said above, you are right back into the Calvinist camp and you would hate that, eh? :smilewinkgrin:

 

Before you get all up in arms, note that I am responding to your own post above. There, you mentioned the Word, but not the Holy Spirit, and I believe that effects your ultimate theology.

As long as you can believe that the Word can do something (with some un-named power that is not directly God) apart from the work of the Holy Spirit (Word is "spirit" and "truth" as is Christ, as is His Spirit) then you COULD arrive at an means to belief without the action of God in a direct fashion by the actions of a human reading a word in a book.

It is THAT concept that I am calling you on. God illuminates His Word through the power of the Holy Spirit, which you have since agreed with, but does that change your argument above? Seems to not...

 

Your premises are the very ones in question, yet you draw from them for evidence for the arguments you think Calvinists should answer.

 

In the very picky level of theological attack that you bring to "prove" your own doctrines, yes...

I can only rebut what you actually write, not your intent. What you wrote above was incorrect, and from it, one could be led to false conclusions, as it missed an entire category of action by God in the process of salvation.

That is indeed the implications of the original statement that I responded to. And, I certainly can grasp your point of view. I know as well as you do what the Scriptures say about the gospel and the power of the Word. But, you are (or were in a poorly written statement -- I'm giving you an out here) arguing for the power of the Word apart from God's direct interaction via the Holy Spirit. The words on paper are not Christian magic. God, Himself, in the form of the Holy Spirit makes the words of the Scriptures live. They are His words, alive because of Him, not because they are written.

Oh, stop it... Strawman and red herring all the way.

You got caught in a theological blunder above and now you are looking to fight your way out. Better to just capitulate and get it correct.

So, you are yet recanting... And, redirecting with another question. The subject you just brought up is but another dodge to get off the topic that is costing you this debate.

 

I'm certainly not stopping the conversation because of your arguments. I am stopping this thread because I am tired of it.

 

Yes Skan, God's words are not ordinary words. Jesus said his words are spirit (Holy Spirit) and life. Heb 4:12 says the word of God is quick (alive) and POWERFUL, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and the intents of the heart.

Hearing God's word has a powerful affect on a man's heart and conscience. A man is convicted to the heart by God's word, his mind is illuminated to understand that Jesus paid his sin. A man is convinced and persuaded he can be saved by trusting Christ through God's word.

Anyone who thinks scripture are mere words has not understood God's word.

 

Amen............!

 

A little integrity, please. You don't invite rebuttal concerning the the "Three types," "temporary hardening," etc. You presume them to be established facts and then ask Calvinists to reconcile their doctrines to them.

Of course, you will say, "Am not."

 

I can see I have failed to communicate the most damaging assault to your position in that this passage is clearly talking about all non believers. whither they be Jewish or Gentile. Allow me to point out again the universal statements.

Now this I say and testify in the Lord, that you must no longer walk as the Gentiles do, (AS THEY DO NOW.....THIS WAS IN THE NT) in the futility of their minds. They are darkened in their understanding, alienated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, due to their hardness of heart.

Notice that Paul does not say that some of the Gentiles are walking this way.
Notice Paul does not issue qualifying standards to the hardening other than this..THE GENTILES. In other words...ALL
Notice again that Paul has already told readers what this "WALKING AS THE GENTILES" involved in chapter 2.

This is from chapter 2.......
You Gentiles were dead in sin..
You Gentiles walked following the world.
You Gentiles followed the devil.
You Gentiles were disobedient
You Gentiles lived after the flesh.
You Gentiles were children of Gods wrath.

Paul is again addressing GENTILE believers telling what state they were saved from. Now, these now believers walked in this state of HARDNESS. These GENTILES again are in the NT.

NOW BIG POINT HERE....IN CHAPTER 4, PAUL IS SAYING DO NOT LIVE A LIFE AS THE GENTILES ARE LIVING RIGHT NOW.....THAT IS ALL OF THEM....ALL OF GENTILES IN THE NT THAT ARE NOT ELECT.

But you say…but this is not Judicial Hardening.

Again I point out the universal statement found in chapter 2 verse 3….."like the rest of mankind." All of mankind means both the Jews and the GENTILES.

So..whatever you wish to call this HARDENING it is in ALL OF MANKIND.

Also....When you read passages that tell how the hardening happens, this we can say happens to all people that are not elect.
********

Now may be a good time to bring in Romans 11. Paul is addressing the possible question that many may be asking at this point about the Jews. Verse 1 of chapter 11 starts like this..

Did God cast away His people?…..NO……God did not cast away His people….I left to Myself seven thousand men, who did not bow a knee to Baal.' ……..in the present time a remnant

How is this remnant kept?
Verse 5….according to the choice of grace.

CHOICE = Election

So you have
1) Jewish believers saved through election..

So what about the rest?

Verse 7 tells us…

7What then? What Israel doth seek after, this it did not obtain, and the chosen did obtain, and the rest were hardened,

So we have.
1) Jewish believers saved through election..
2) the REST…all the other Jewish people that were not elect….WERE HARDENED.

Notice the past tense. When did this happen?

This has ALWAYS been the case. It happened in the OT which Paul shows in this passage. It was happening then as Paul wrote this. It is happening NOW.

So how is this DONE?

Verse 8…..
God gave to them a spirit of deep sleep, eyes not to see, and ears not to hear,' -- unto this very day,


Notice the words…..UNTO THIS VERY DAY.

This tells us the HARDENING that you call…"Judicial Hardening"….happened in the OT to Israel…and it was still happening as Paul wrote this. It is still happening today.

'

 

My answers suffice. I just don't want to be a part of this thread. I in no way left your thread because I was uncomfortable with your statements. As a matter of fact I find them lacking in depth and easy to refute. I left because I'm just tired of the thread. I post on other boards and chat rooms and I am currently involved in a lot of discussions about the same topic.

 

You are being obnoxious and calling me a liar. I am telling you the truth. That's the last I'm going to say about it. You are free to abandon orthodoxy and choose whatever false system you want. No one is stopping you. We have freedom of religion in the US. However, you will be called to account by God for not rightly dividing the word of truth. I doubt that bothers you, but don't say you weren't warned.

 

Only calvinism is orthodox? You have just written off the majority of all believer with that statement, congrats!