Why Is It Wrong?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by OldRegular, Feb 1, 2015.

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  1. OldRegular

    OldRegular
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    To ask the following questions:

    I started a thread "Pre-Trib-Dispensationalism and the Bible" in which I asked the above questions. This BB is comprised of about 60% Pre-Trib-Dispensationalists so it would seem that the above questions are appropriate and that answers would be readily forthcoming. But they were not. The thread was closed after only 15 posts. Those posts were no more rancorous than many on this BB especially those dealing with Calvinism though the words "lie" and "slime" were thrown around somewhat.

    Again the questions I asked above certainly are nowhere near as provocative as Calvinism/Why God Hates or Preparing a truthful Calvinist sermon on the Calvinism/Arminianism Forum. And then there is the thread If you do not hold to "Doctrines of Grace" are you lost? on this Forum. Yet the thread asking the above questions was closed after only 15 posts while the thread Preparing a truthful Calvinist sermon ran for 400 posts.

    So I am curious as to why the above questions are anathema, sort of like Protestants in the Canons of Trent!
     
  2. Aaron

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    It isn't wrong. :type:
     
  3. convicted1

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    Ditto......
     
  4. HankD

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    As others have said it's not wrong to ask these questions.

    The issue here as with several other doctrinal issues is that these doctrine are of a complex nature e.g. the Hypostatic Union, The Trinity, etc are of a composite nature. Several scripture have to be looked at and analyzed.

    After comparing scripture against scripture conclusions concerning theses doctrine are drawn.

    Being human we will disagree. I believe the manner and expression of the disagreements have an effect upon how those who are charged with keeping the peace here at the BB make their judgments.

    Also, dispensationalism has many flavors. Your Number 2 is an example. Not every dispensationalist would choose the terminology you used which many times in the responding things will escalate into something ugly (as with other doctrinal matters)

    And so it goes on...
    Being human.


    HankD
     
  5. Van

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    Sometimes when folks hold views based on the speculations of men, they get defensive (i.e. it is wrong to ask for the scriptural basis of my view) when asked to actually discuss how the view is supported in scripture.

    Certainly there are verses that pre-tribulation rapture folks point to as supporting their view, but alternate interpretations are also possible, so the support is actually weak.

    And in my opinion, there is no actual support for the parenthetical view of the church. Again, people will claim I am mistaken, but an actual discussion of scripture will not ensue.
     
  6. OldRegular

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    I agree that the questions I raise cannot be answered simply, particularly the second one which raises the hackles of many who believe in a pre-trib-rapture. However, I did not invent the terms "parenthesis" or intercalation to describe the Church. These terms were used by the preeminent scholars of dispensationalism.

    Dr. Thomas ice {http://www.pre-trib.org/articles/view/short-history-of-dispensationalism} writing of Darby states:
    The late John F. Walvoord, a preeminent dispensationalist theologian and former president of the Dallas Theological Seminary, confesses that the validity of the pre-tribulation ‘rapture’ depends on the definition of the Church [Major Bible Prophecies, page 282]. Walvoord writes:

    Strangely, given the predominance of dispensationalists among the Southern Baptists the Southern Baptist Convention in Atlanta, Georgia on June 14, 2000, adopted the following definition of the Church [Section VI]:

    Dr. Ice also states about Darby in the above link:
    There is no doubt that some Church fathers wrote about different dispensations. It also appears that some even mentioned a pre-trib-rapture. That being said it is also a historical fact that pre-trib-dispensational doctrine had no impact on the Church until Darby and in time the Scofield Reference Bible.

    The 19th Century was apparently a time of doubt and turmoil within the Christian Community both here and abroad. The long Napoleonic War in Europe, the issue of slavery in the States, the "coldness" of the sacerdotal churches in general may have had an impact. It is certain that Darby rejected the Church of England/Ireland in which he was a deacon. Dr. Ice writes { http://www.pre-trib.org/data/pdf/Ice-JohnNelsonDarbyandth.pdf }
    Whatever the cause in the 19th Century the Church experienced the birth of number of movements in addition to pre-trib-dispensationalism. I will refrain from naming these lest anyone assume I am equating them with the pre-trib-dispensationalism of Darby.

    I agree that both the doctrines of the Hypostatic Union and the Trinity are complex issues. However I believe I can demonstrate clearly with only a few verses of Scripture that both are solid Biblical doctrines.
     
  7. DHK

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    If this thread is not substantially different than the thread already started, where the typical answer is:

    http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=2187672&postcount=122

    It also will be shut down.
     
  8. OldRegular

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    I ask again:

    Why Is It Wrong to ask the following questions:

     
  9. quantumfaith

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    I have to agree with you OR (and you know how that pains me :) ) I fail to understand why it must be shut down.
     
  10. OldRegular

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    And I want you to know that at this time I truly feel your pain!:BangHead:
     
  11. HankD

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    To the satisfaction of you and I you could. I have tried in other Arian venues (JW) only to find that a few verses of scripture often turns into a multitude of scripture verses.

    You may already know this but In fact the doctrine of the Trinity raged for several centuries (even with some bloodshed) until the council of Nicea AD325. Thank goodness we've outgrown that method of solving a debate.

    HankD
     
  12. HankD

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    First: although I let folks tag me as a dispensationalist, I am not the "Darby" cookie-cutter type and in fact would be considered closer to a progressive type (although I don't like that tag either).

    Actually it seems that rapture dispensationalism was the child of 3 jesuit priests - Francisco Ribera (1537-1591) of Salamanca, Luis de Alcazar (1554-1621) of Seville, and Cardinal Roberto Bellarmine (1542-1621).

    http://preachersinstitute.com/2011/05/20/rapture-theologys-ominous-origins/

    Later this piece tells how the pubs fell into Darby's hands who apparently embellished it with some visions had by a young lady named Margaret McDonald. It seems these "vision" anomalies continued on for quite a while and is why (IMO) dispensationalism is so popular among charismatics.

    I say these things to show that developmental composite doctrines often have questionable originators and contributors but that does not necessarily defeat the core truths (if there be any).

    The doctrine of the Trinity had a similar history with survivors to this very day of such as modalists and outright trinitarian deniers.

    The Early Church Fathers (ECF) had to battle very strange doctrine (some derived from hellenistic mystery cult fables of which JWs are delighted to show us the images/idols of these 3 headed gods) in the development of the orthodox Trinitarian view (which of course we all accept, well most all).

    My view as to dispensationalism is to glean the truth from the fable (as is yours I am sure) using the scripture as the final authority. But remember there are bound to be the strange and the curious along the way to the truth Trinitarian or otherwise.

    So, yes, I believe there was an "age" of innocence, a post Noahide general global government, the law of Moses, the church age, the "rapture - actually the snatching away or hiding", tribulation and millennium (called the Chiliad by the ECF). I do reject such things as one gospel for Gentiles, one for Jews and other over-reach dogma.

    I would rather say "ages" than "dispensations" but then what do I call myself?

    HankD
     
    #12 HankD, Feb 2, 2015
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2015
  13. DHK

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    You have asked them in another thread and they have been answered.
    Why must another thread be opened to repeat the same questions over and over again. There is still another thread open where these questions have been asked.
     
  14. OldRegular

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    Which one is that?
     
  15. OldRegular

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    I believe it was some years later before the Doctrine of the Hypostatic Union was settled at Chalcedon!
     
  16. Earth Wind and Fire

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    Yup....it isn't wrong! :laugh:
     
  17. OldRegular

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    I had read a number of sources, links, showing that the concept of different dispensations preceded Darby. I had been apprised some months back in another thread that a Baptist preacher in this country talked about the rapture prior to Darby. I found a link this morning which apparently claims a much earlier date for the discussion of the Rapture: http://www.essentialchristianity.com/pages.asp?pageid=21918

    Because of the type I have read only the introduction. That being said it was not until Darby that the doctrine of the pre-trib-rapture really became accepted to any extent in the churches. As I said earlier it may be because of the state of the western world in the 19th century and Dr. Thomas Ice credits Darby as being the Father of pre-trib-dispensationalism.
     
  18. Getting it Right

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    I don't understand why anyone should consult sources other than the Bible. It is all right there.

    I don't understand why anyone has these questions in the first place. What purpose would it serve if the questioner got 20 different answers?

    There is only one source, one answer, dutifully written out by a variety of authors, in the one and only Spiritually inspired and given document, the Bible.

    :praying::praying::praying:
     
    #18 Getting it Right, Feb 2, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 2, 2015
  19. DHK

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    Here it is OR.
    First your OP:
    Now from the thread entitled:
    Two good arguments for a Pretrib Rapture, some quotes from you:
    http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=2187551&postcount=104

    http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=2187559&postcount=107

    http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=2187611&postcount=114

    The last page is here. When Inspector Javert and RevMitchell entered into the discussion you bowed out. In fact it seems you ran out. Perhaps the Inspector was too hard on you. If this thread is not appreciably different than the one already open it will be closed, and now you know why.
    http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=97562&page=13
     
  20. Revmitchell

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    Boy that is rich. Considering the source that takes alot of gall.
     
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