Why is this so hard to understand?

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by TBLADY, May 30, 2007.

  1. TBLADY

    TBLADY
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    I usually do not read all the threads and post...don't have time.
    But I noticed this question was brought up. What does it mean to be born again?

    Since the thread took a turn down a rabbit hole. I thought I would try to keep it on track. Here is my post.


    Being born again has nothing to do with works or our behavior. It has to do with God coming to LIVE IN us. Being FILLED with the Holy Spirit.

    When Jesus told Nicodemous he must be born again he meant he must have a new nature...his spirit was dead, he and all of us are born spiritualy dead and only God make his spirit alive again, by faith in Christ.
     
  2. Accountable

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    How was Nicodemous to be FILLED with the Holy Spirit when the Holy Spirit didn't descend and come upon them until Acts 2 at Pentecost?

    I'm looking forward to your reply.
     
  3. EdSutton

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    Good question!

    Ed
     
  4. pinoybaptist

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    I think you are talking of two different things here.

    Being indwelt by the Holy Spirit is not the same as being filled by the Holy Spirit.
     
    #4 pinoybaptist, May 30, 2007
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  5. Pastor Larry

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    Being born again is being given spiritual life.

    What's the difficulty?
     
  6. Scarlett O.

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    Many, many people were filled with the Holy Spirit before the day of Pentecost. I'll list them below.

    The baptism of the Holy Spirit, not necessarily the indwelling of the Holy Spirit was what happened on the Day of Pentecost. Acts 1:8 said that the baptism of the Holy Spirit was for them to "receive power". Not salvation. Many had already been saved before that day and Jesus, Himself, bestowed the Holy Spirit on a group of people before He ascended.

    The baptism of the Holy Spirit on the Day of Pentecost, in my opinion was the birth of the church.....an empowerment of Christians as a body of believers.

    The following people were filled with the Holy Spirit before the 2nd chapter of Acts.

    Psalm 51:11 (King David)
    "Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me."

    Isaiah 63:11 (Moses)
    "Then they remembered the old days, the days of Moses, God's servant; 'Where is he who brought the shepherd of his flock up and out of the sea? And what happened to the One who set his Holy Spirit within him?

    Luke 1:15 (John the Baptist)
    "For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled the the Holy Spirit, even from his mother's womb."

    Luke 1:41 (Elisabeth)
    "And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the saluation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost."

    Luke 1:67 (Zachariah)
    "And his father Zachariah was filled the Holy Ghost, and prophesied..."

    Luke 2:25 (Simeon)
    "And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon; and the same man was just and devout, waiting for the consolation fo Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him."

    John 20:22 (the disciples)
    "And when he had said this, he (Jesus) breathed on them, and said, "Receive ye the Holy Ghost....'".

    Ephesians 1:13 (anyone who is saved, including everyone who accepted Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior before the Day of Pentecost.)
    "....in whom (Jesus Christ) you also trusted, after that you heard of word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also after that you believed, you were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise."

     
  7. TBLADY

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    The work of the Holy Spirit is still the same before Pentecost and after....Old Testament and new. To REKNEW a dead spirit.

    In the OT the Holy Spirit came and went as God felt lead. People were saved by FAITH in the OT and NT.

    I am sure Nicodemus was still alive at Pentecost and was filled with the Holy Spirit...the Holy Spirit isn't what saved him it was his FAITH. We are only talking about, maybe a three year period when Christ spoke to Nicodemus and the time of Pentecost. The truth still remains, put your faith in God and what Christ was going to do or did on the cross and your dead spirit will be made ALIVE.

    It was a good question, but it doesn't change the truth of what being born again means...making a dead spirit alive by the Holy Spirit through faith.
     
  8. pinoybaptist

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    good post, Scarlett O.:thumbs:
     
  9. TBLADY

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    Scarlett do you have the LINK where you got your info from? Looks like it came from a search. I'd like to see it, thank you. Seems I was writing as you were posting...same time.

    Good points that agree with what i said.
     
    #9 TBLADY, May 30, 2007
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  10. Scarlett O.

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    TBLADY, there is no link. The commentary is my own. Whenever I post something, if it is not my own words then I either say whose commentary I am quoting, such as Clarke, or I give a link.

    I collected all of the scripture passages, however, from biblegateway.com. I clicked on "key word search" and typed in "Holy Spirit" and looked at both the KJV and NIV for scripture references to people before the Day of Pentecost. It's a great on-line tool to take you straight to the bible passages that you are looking for. :thumbs:


    I knew the Psalms 51 passage about King David saying, "take not thy Spirit from me" and I wanted to see who else in the bible was "filled with the Holy Spirit" before the day of Pentecost. I knew there had to be others, because I have always personally believed that the Holy Spirit's "rushing might wind" on the Day of Pentecost was for empowerment, not salvation.
     
    #10 Scarlett O., May 30, 2007
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  11. Brother Bob

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    Good answer Scarlett;

    To be born again: is to become dead to sin and made alive in Christ.
    I think everyone on here believes you must be born again, its just as Pinoy says, when are you born again?

    I can see, but do not agree, that the Calvinist believe their regeneration comes first.

    Personally I believe that when you believe in faith that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God, you are already "dead"

    in sin, but then (When you believe and accepted by The Lord) you die dead to sin, and made alive in Christ Jesus. To me this

    is Salvation/Born again. I have always believed that several things take place at once: belief, repentance, faith, Grace, born

    again, die dead to sin, made alive in Jesus, Salvation. I don't believe in a lot of stair steps.


    BBob
     
    #11 Brother Bob, May 30, 2007
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  12. Hope of Glory

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    Funny, isn't it, how two completely different things often get treated synonymously by men, then creates confusion?
     
  13. Accountable

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    Scarlet O & others,

    My question still stands concerning Nicodemus. I understand that tehre are several in the O.T. that had fillings of the Holy Spirit. This is not the "filling" that thTBLADY was refering to. She, to my understanding of her psot, was refering to an experience which would make Nicodemus a "saved person." Believing upon the finished work of Christ.


    Also, as was stated by another, there is a difference between being filled with the Holy Spirit, and being indwelt by the Holy Spirit.
     
  14. Accountable

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    Scarlet O You stated:

    "The baptism of the Holy Spirit on the Day of Pentecost, in my opinion was the birth of the church.....an empowerment of Christians as a body of believers."

    Just a curious, quick, off the subject question:

    If the"birth" of the church was at Pentecost, how were there so many additions to the church if there was no church before this day? In other words how do you add to something that is not there?

    Acts 2:41


    Just a fun question!

    By the way, thank you for the way you responed to blogs. We may not always agree but so far you have answered in a soft voice. Thank you!
     
  15. TBLADY

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    Well then kudo's to you. It was so well done and had underlines that I assumed it was from an article...sorry *blushing* what you wrote made lots of sense.
     
  16. TBLADY

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    I guess what I believe the bible teaches, is that when one not just intellectually understands his need of a savior, and that he is a sinner and when he calls upon the LORD Jesus to be Lord of his life...is when one becomes saved. It is placing trust in yourself over to the Lord.

    When this happens only God really knows, since he is the only one who really knows mans heart, not even man knows his own heart.

    For me it was when I said I couldn't be in control of my life and asked Jesus to take over and guide me in all things and repented of all my sin. The filling of the Holy Spirit happened immediately and right away I had a new spirit and mind. I constantly thought of God, I thought of good and evil, I quit doing things that were bad, I wanted to pray and read God's word. All these things to me were evidence of being BORN AGAIN! It wasn't a process and it never leaves either...the Holy Spirit that is.

    I have been saved 22 years and though I still sin, now I feel bad and want to do what is right unlike before.
     
  17. TBLADY

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    This is an often misunderstood understanding of scripture. The church STARTED with Jesus Christ and his disciples. The word church in the Greek Ekklesia means Called out assembly of believers. So even before Pentecost, where there was any kind of assembly of believers there was a CHURCH.

    When did Jesus begin his church "ekklesia"? When did He begin to call it out and assemble it? We read in John 1:35-51.

    35 Again the next day after John stood, and two of his disciples:
    36 And looking upon Jesus as he walked, he saith, Behold the Lamb of God!
    37 And the two disciples heard him speak, and they followed Jesus.
    38 Then Jesus turned, and saw them following, and saith unto them, what seek ye? They said unto him, Rabbi, where dwellest thou?
    39 He saith unto them, Come and see. They come and saw where he dwelt, and abode with him that day: for it was about the tenth hour.
    40 One of the two which heard John, speak, and followed him, was Andrew, Simon Peter’s brother.
    41 He first findeth his own brother Simon, and saith unto him. We have found the Messias, which is, being interpreted, the Christ.
    42 And he brought him to Jesus. And when Jesus beheld him, he said, Thou art Simon the son of Jona: thou shalt be called Cephas, which is by interpretation, A stone.
    43 The day following Jesus would go forth into Galilee, and findeth Philip, and saith unto him, Follow me
    44 Now Philip was of Bethsaida, the city of Andrew and Peter.
    45 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.
    46 And Nathanael said unto him, Can there any good thing come out of Nazareth? Philip saith unto him, Come and see.
    47 Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him, and saith of him, Behold an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile!
    48 Nathanael saith unto him, Whence knowest thou me? Jesus answered and said unto him, Before that Philip called thee, when thou wast under the fig tree, I saw thee.
    49 Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel.
    50 Jesus answered and said unto him, Because I said unto thee, I saw thee under the fig tree, believest thou? thou shalt see greater things than these.
    51 And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.

    Here was the beginning of Christ’s calling out His assembly
     
    #17 TBLADY, May 30, 2007
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  18. AresMan

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    Agree.

    Note that to the Calvinist, this is a "logical" order and not a "chronological" order.

    I don't think anyone disagrees with this. All of this happens simultaneously. The only difference is that you and the Calvinist would disagree over which is the cause and which is the effect (or which one logically leads to the other).
     
  19. Scarlett O.

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    And it's a very good question at that. It isn't that something was added where nothing existed. You are right, that can't be.

    It's that something was added that changed what originally existed into an entirely new entity.

    Sort of like adding heat to pan full of eggs, milk, flour, and sugar.....you're gonna get a cake. Without that heat, it's just a pan of batter. It still tastes sweet, but you can't frost a pan of batter and you can't slice it nor serve it to guests.

    Again, this is just my humble opinion....

    I don't say "birth" in the sense of it being the first time for people to be saved, because they were already some saved people who had already received the Holy Spirit.

    But that handful of disciples who had received the Holy Spirit from Jesus (John 20:22) were told by Jesus to stay in Jerusalem until they were empowered by the Holy Spirit, not just indwelt.

    I say "birth" in the sense of the empowerment given to saved people on a global scale. This empowerment, making all saved people of every race and nation a united force to be reckoned with, began on the Day of Pentecost.

    Think of it as those few, initial saved people becoming "incorporated" into a global body. :laugh:

    Have I muddied the waters yet? :saint:
     
  20. Accountable

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    According to some, the water was probably muddy before we even began to share!:laugh:

    I will try to reply tomorrow. It is late here in Mexico and it is time to put the 5 kids to bed! I may be traveling in the desert for ministry tomorrow and away from electricity to blog. I will return to this subject as soon as I can!
     

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