why many religious people will go to hell

Agreed USN, But here again we're talking about Christian Maturity. Not one person saved is totally reformed at that day. It is a constant struggle to let go go the World that the things that the world has. It's a constant process. That is what i'm referring to. I've been saved almost 2 years and the Lord is still cleaning me up.

 

The problem with Massdak's opening post is that it proports that salvation is contingent upon something other than grace. That is a liberali religionist view, and in unscriptural. Scripture says that none of us is righteous. Massdak makes the mistake of thinking that only homosexuals and the like are unrighteous. That very judgement is in and of itself unrighteous.

There is a somewhat similar discussion in another thread which discusses if we are saved even if our doctrine is not 100%. If Massdak is correct, then all who adhere to the false doctrine of KJVOism would be hellbound!!

Thankfully, I have a relationship with my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, which is what saves me, regardless of how many scriptural interpretations or doctrines I might be wrong about, or how many sins I have committed, or how many sins I have not yet committed.

 

SimplyBee, despite the rants of many who wish to soothe your conscience, homo relations ARE worse that non-marital hetero sexual sins.

When you consider Romans 1, homo behavior is actually a judgment from God. Like it or not, your feelings are not natural, you are way outside natural feelings, your lifestyle is repulsive to God, and you have not repented and turned to Christ. You are still bound by sin.

 

The problem with having Johnv in any of these discussions is that it is like reading a Max Lucado book, it sounds good, until you start actually reading it.

John, no one is saying that only homos are unrighteous. The point is that certain things demonstrate that one does not have saving faith. Homo behavior is one of those things. Idolators are another. Those who deny Christ are another.

Stop with the ridiculous liberal views John and come back to a reality based understanding of Scripture.

 

That is simply not true in regards to our relatonship with God. Any sin, regardless of how "small" we may regard it, requires separation from God - apart from the finished work of Christ Jesus.

 

DD, you're correct when you refer to Romans 1 and homosexual hehavoir being a judgement from God. You'd be wrong, however, to presume that all homosexuals are the recipient of a judgement from God. There are many judgements that God has handed out. For example, famine and earthquakes. Yet, those who are victims of famine or earthquakes today are no more guilty of sin than any of us, and their lifestyle is no more repugnant than those who live in prosperity and clement weather.

I disagree that a homosexual sex is worse than heterosexual extramarital sex. Both are inappropriate. Jesus even says that a person who looks at someone who is not a spouse is guilty of adultery, and adultery is a violation of the Ten Commandments.

 

SimplyBee,

You might want to disregard the last post (the one that said homosexual sins are worse than heterosexual sexual sins)...



I think the summation of all of this would be thus: If you are tempted, don't act. Count yourself blessed to have suffered for Christ.
You are what you are - neither I nor another believer can tell you that your feelings are or are not your own fault.

But scripture is clear that homosexual relations are something from which we must flee.

 

That's the crux. The OP implies that a person who is a homosexual, or who does not take Gen1 hyperliterally, does not have saving faith. The OP presumes an unrighteous judgement, when viewed in light of the entire weight of scripture. It is the OP view, not my view, that is liberal, since my view does not add to, nor does it detract from, scripture.

 

simply bee said:

Yet you never gave us any explanation. You gave us lamentations.

So, are you a practicing homosexual ? One who thinks God made a mistake somewhere either in His creation or in His declaration that those who lie down with mankind as with womankind are abomination, confusion and must be put to death ? And that the Holy Spirit lost it when He told Paul to wrote that famous weapon Christian dogmatists quote at you in Romans 1 and in the Book of Corinthians ?

Or are you a repentant homosexual, one who's been there, one who's dunked himself over his head in those filthy waters and was pulled out by the Holy Spirit, washed and sanctified like David's Angel said in her rebuke to Massdak.

Or are you somebody 'struggling' with your 'feelings', not knowing which way to go, pulled to this and that direction, but, resisting because you grew up a Christian (which by the way, doesn't necessarily make you one).

If you're the first, then, sorry, no sympathy from this end.

If you're the second, then you oughtta be speaking out in witness to the truth versus the lie that the homosexual community and their friends and fellow travelers are trying to impose on the decent part of America.

If you're the third, and holding yourself back because you 'grew up' a 'Christian', well, you're going to lose, because the first real catalyst that comes along is going to sweep you into that filthy and disgusting lifestyle, because your barrier to sin, your will, is as a weak and easily broken matchbox under the deluge of water from the dragon called Satan.

 

You see this thread is getting way off the original subject, but you know it's ok. My views tend to be totally general and not to the pin point. But, this is what I believe. This dosen't mean you have to believe the same. It's just what I regard .

Homosexuality is a sin
Adultry is a Sin
Lying is a Sin
Judgemental Behavior is a sin

All 4 of these sins are part of the ten commandments. How many have you broken?

If you have then you cannot judge Bee. Sorry but, it's facts.

Your sister in Christ,

Wendy

 

But Charles,
Every Christian sins in thought, word, deed, things left undone.
No one will go to Heaven by your expressed criteria.

I am going to Heaven because Jesus Christ, my Lord and Saviour, paid for all of my sins, once and for all.
No, that is not a license for me to sin. But we are all growing in Christ, starting out as babies, and going on to completion. Maturity takes longer than we often think it should, especially in the case of those on either side of us at church.

Karen

 

by David's Angel:

Then you do not know your Bible.

We are told to judge sin in one who professes a brother.

We are told to rebuke sin.

We are told to separate from erring brethren.

We are told to pull a brother out of the fire.

Do your homework, read your Bible.

 

Dear Wendy,
In my opinion, the concept of not judging is often misunderstood and overdone.
The Bible also says to judge with righteous judgment. Often, not judging comes across like:
"Don't express any opinion at all."

Homosexual behaviour is wrong. It is sinful, and it is not LESS sinful than other sins.

SimplyBee, I am sorry for your experiences in church. If you came to mine, you would hear that homosexual behaviour is a sin, but you would not be shunned. Unless you define shunning as any thing other than approval of behaviour.
I think you would find people that would care about you and try to walk alongside you.
The sad fact is that Christians often struggle in this life. But we are supposed to help each other through it.

Karen

 

Karen, I do present my opinion, but I do not tell them they are going to hell, because that is not what I believe. I don't down them or redicule them either. If they asked me I would tell them, It's a sin and I believe it is very wrong. But, I don't know what thier heart says to the Lord. That is the type of judging i'm talking about. When we are too busy looking at other people, to avoid looking at ourselves (and no i'm not talking about anyone here ).

 

Karen,

Very valid points - we'll never err by showing kindness and leaving the judging to God.

In this case I DO think the issue is fairly clear - at least as it relates to persistence in a sinful lifestyle. Paul did say, "be ye not deceived" - so I think he's attempting to point out that a life of unrepentent sin is not consistent with a saved person. He means that one who can persistently sin the same sin and feel OK about it has not the Spirit!

 

Looking back at my posts to both simplybee and karen I see I have been too strong in my approach, and I apologize.

I for one do not judge anyone's salvation. If simplybee were to attend our church, he will be most welcome and as loved as any member of the church.

But baptized membership will be another thing.

 

When Paul became a Christian he ceased to being a murderer.

To compare sexual perversion with baldness is ludicrous. All people are born with some type of sinful tenancy; God does not excuse deviate behavior simply because someone says they are born desiring that certain sin.

Again, because a person has a tendency to sin is not an excuse to exercise that tendency.

Jesus Christ did not teach tolerance toward sin.

 

To compare sexual perversion with baldness is ludicrous. All people are born with some type of sinful tenancy; God does not excuse deviate behavior simply because someone says they are born desiring that certain sin.

</font>[/QUOTE]Absolutely Terry!

The NT teaches a gospel of repentance. Christians sin and sometimes grieviously. However, a Christian will not accept sin as their "lifestyle".

A drunk can be saved. A saved drunk might have failures after salvation maybe even for what we might consider a significant time. But he won't go back to being a full-time, unrepentant, God-defying drunk.

 

didnt he die for EVERY sinner, and Every Sin?

isnt that "tolerance" to the ultimate degree.

didnt he even take the shame that "sinners" layed on him at the time as they nailed his body to the cross...saying "father, forgive them for they know not what they do"?

thats impartial grace in action.

and denying impartial grace to anyone is what lands a person "in hell".

 

Christianity isn't exclusive of any sin. I would imagine that most if not all of them are represented in the lives of us who post to this very thread.

But usually when someone speaks of homosexuality the way you have, they aren't referring to a sin that they think should be repented of and resisted but rather one that we narrow minded Bible believers should just accept.

There is exclusivity between Christianity and any sin that is practiced as a lifestyle.

I hope it will be helpful to point out that this may be the root of your problem. You don't just "happen" to be gay. We all have a weakness to sin and I personally believe that each of us has some especially weak spots. One might be sex, one anger, one stealing, and so on.

But genuine salvation and repentance frees one from that bondage. Not that we don't fail ever but that it progressively ceases to be what we want as our will is conformed to Christ's.

Your post sounds as if you have really never agreed with God about the sinfulness of that particular sin.