Why Paul Pronoun Shifts

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by 1jim, Aug 21, 2005.

  1. 1jim

    1jim
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    Hello,


    Here are all of the uses of the phrase “en w kai” (in whom also / in which also) in the New Testament:

    (ASV) Corinthians 15:1 Now I make known unto you brethren, THE GOSPEL WHICH I preached unto you, WHICH also ye received, WHEREIN ALSO (en w kai) ye stand, 2 BY WHICH ALSO ye are saved, if ye hold fast the word which I preached unto you, except ye believed in vain.

    (ASV) Colossians 2:9 for IN HIM dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily, 10 and IN HIM ye are made full, who is the head of all principality and power: 11 IN WHOM ye were ALSO (en w kai) circumcised with a circumcision not made with hands, in the putting off of the body of the flesh, in the circumcision of Christ; 12 having been buried with him IN BAPTISM, WHEREIN ye were ALSO (en w kai) raised [with him] through faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead through your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, you, [I say], did he make alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses;

    (ASV) 1 Peter 3:18 Because Christ also suffered for sins once, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God; being put to death in the flesh, but made alive IN THE SPIRIT; 19 IN WHICH ALSO (en w kai) he went and preached unto the spirits in prison,

    (ASV) Ephesians 1:3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly [places] IN CHRIST: 4 even as he chose us IN HIM before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blemish before him in love: 5 having foreordained us unto adoption as sons through Jesus Christ unto himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6 to the praise of the glory of his grace, which he freely bestowed on us IN THE BELOVED: 7 IN WHOM (en w) we have our redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, 9 making known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he purposed IN HIM 10 unto a dispensation of the fulness of the times, to sum up all things in Christ, the things in the heavens, and the things upon the earth; IN HIM, [I say,] 11 IN WHOM ALSO (en w kai) we were made a heritage, having been foreordained according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his will; 12 to the end that we should be unto the praise of his glory, we who had before hoped in Christ: 13 IN WHOM ye ALSO (en w kai), having heard the word of the truth, the gospel of your salvation, IN WHOM, having ALSO (en w kai) believed, ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 which is an earnest of our inheritance, unto the redemption of [God's] own possession, unto the praise of his glory.

    (ASV) Ephesians 2:17 and he came and preached peace to you that were far off, and peace to them that were nigh: 18 for through him we both have our access in one Spirit unto the Father. 19 So then ye are no more strangers and sojourners, but ye are fellow-citizens with the saints, and of the household of God, 20 being built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the chief corner stone; 21 IN WHOM (en w) each several building, fitly framed together, groweth into a holy temple in the Lord; 22 IN WHOM ye ALSO (en w kai) are builded together for a habitation of God in the Spirit.


    Jim:

    I submit that contrary to the translations above, there is no “you also” (you are doing something in addition to others doing it) or “He also” (He is doing something in addition to someone else doing it) in any of these verses but only “in whom/which also” (in whom/which one thing is true, in whom/which also a second thing is true, in whom/which also a third thing is true, et cetera). I submit that the writer is not differentiating either two different persons (He also) or two different groups of people (you also) in any of these verses. The writer is merely saying that this is true in Him, and this also is true in Him, and this also is true in Him, et cetera, in Ephesians 1:7-13 and 2:21-22. I submit that the reason for the pronoun shift (we/you/our) in Ephesians 1:12-14 and in Ephesians 2:21-22 (all the building [we] / you) is no different than the reason for the pronoun shift (us/you/us/you/we) in Ephesians 2:5-10:

    (ASV) Ephesians 2:5 even when we were dead through our trespasses, made US alive together with Christ (by grace have YE been saved), 6 and raised us up with him, and made us to sit with him in the heavenly [places], in Christ Jesus: 7 that in the ages to come he might show the exceeding riches of his grace in kindness toward US in Christ Jesus: 8 for by grace have YE been saved through faith; and that not of YOURSELVES, [it is] the gift of God; 9 not of works, that no man should glory. 10 For WE are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God afore prepared that WE should walk in them.

    ... which is no different than the reason for the pronoun shift in Romans 7:4 and 8:12-15, in 1 Corinthians 6:2-3, in Galatians 4:5-6 and in Colossians 2:13:

    (ASV) Romans 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, YE also [as in the analogy in verses 7:2-3] were made dead to the law through the body of Christ; that YE should be joined to another, [even] to him who was raised from the dead, that WE might bring forth fruit unto God.

    (ASV) Romans 8:12 So then, brethren, WE are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh: 13 for if YE live after the flesh, YE must die; but if by the Spirit YE put to death the deeds of the body, YE shall live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15 For YE received not the spirit of bondage again unto fear; but YE received the spirit of adoption, whereby WE cry, Abba, Father.

    (ASV) 1 Corinthians 6:2 Or know ye not that THE SAINTS shall judge the world? and if the world is judged by YOU, are YE unworthy to judge the smallest matters? 3 Know YE not that WE shall judge angels? how much more, things that pertain to this life?

    (ASV) Galatians 4:5 that he might redeem them that were under the law, that WE might receive the adoption of sons. 6 And because YE are sons, God sent forth the Spirit of his Son into OUR hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

    (ASV) Colossians 2:13 And YOU, being dead through your trespasses and the uncircumcision of YOUR flesh, YOU, [I say], did he make alive together with him, having forgiven US all our trespasses;

    Just as Peter is not differentiating Jesus and another person in a common action in 1 Peter 3:19 (quoted above), likewise Paul is not differentiating two different groups of believers in a common action in any of these passages quoted above. In all of these passages in which Paul shifts between the first (we) and second person (you), he is not differentiating two different groups of believers but is stating what is true of all believers (we/us/our), intermittently inserting “you/your” (the believers to whom the epistle is written) where he would normally say “we/us/our” (all believers) in order to make what he is stating to be true of all believers (we/us/our) more personal for the believers to whom the epistle is written (you/your). In none of these passages quoted above does Paul use the exclusive “we.” He consistently uses the inclusive “we” (all believers), intermittently shifting to “you” (the believers to whom the epistle is written) for emphasis of inclusion in “we” (all believers).

    Thus, in Ephesians 1:7-14, Paul says, “IN WHOM we (all believers) have our redemption through His blood ... IN WHOM ALSO we (all believers) were made an inheritance ... so that we (all believers) would be for the praise of His glory (at the resurrection), who had before hoped in Christ (in this life, compare 1 Corinthians 15:19-23, all believers hoping in Christ in this life before being to the praise of God’s glory at the resurrection), IN WHOM ALSO you (the believers to whom the epistle is written, the pronoun shift for emphasis of inclusion), having heard the word of the truth, the Gospel of your (that of the believers to whom the epistle is written) salvation, IN WHOM ALSO having believed, were sealed by the Holy Spirit of the promise, which is a guarantee of OUR (that of all believers) inheritance until the redemption (the resurrection) of the possession (all believers) for the praise of His glory (at the resurrection).

    Thus, in Ephesians 2:21-22, Paul says, “IN WHOM all the building (we, all believers), being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord, IN WHOM ALSO you (the believers to whom the epistle is written, the pronoun shift for emphasis of inclusion) are being built together into a dwelling place of God in/by the Spirit.

    I don’t think that it’s any accident that the conjunction “kai” (also) is absent from the first element but present in every subsequent element in the phrase sequence “in whom ... in whom also ... in whom also ... in whom also” in Ephesians 1:7-13 and in the phrase sequence “in whom ... in whom also” in Ephesians 2:21-22.

    Shifting between first (we/us/our, all believers) and second person (you/your, the believers to whom the epistle is written) in stating what is true of all believers (we/us/our) in order to emphasize the INCLUSION of the believers to whom the epistle is written (you/your) in what is being stated to be true of all believers (we/us/our) is typical of Paul’s writing style.

    I think that the translators of the New Testament make a big mistake and do the reader an injustice when they translate this pronoun shift as if Paul is differentiating two separate, mutually exclusive groups of believers, the referent of “you/your” being excluded from the referent of “we/us/our.” Those readers who are prone to segregate believers in Christ according to the flesh (Jews and Gentiles) jump all over this MISTRANSLATION to claim a scriptural justification for their emphasis of the flesh, such segregation (according to the flesh) being the exact OPPOSITE of what Paul plainly teaches throughout his epistles.


    Jim
     
  2. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn
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    Jim,
    You may find my discussions on Galatians interesting and to the point which you here make.
    Galatians is Paul's best attempt at destroying any distinction between Jew and Gentile in so far as justification and salvation is concerned. He - as I came to understand Paul - actually teaches any and everyone must first become a Gentile - in every respect a sinner and hopelessly lost - for God to save him. Paul requires of no one to first become a Jew - someone who perhaps might be able to boast in works of the Law - in order to be saved!
     
  3. 1jim

    1jim
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    Hi Gerhard,


    Gerhard:

    You may find my discussions on Galatians interesting and to the point which you here make. Galatians is Paul's best attempt at destroying any distinction between Jew and Gentile in so far as justification and salvation is concerned. He - as I came to understand Paul - actually teaches any and everyone must first become a Gentile - in every respect a sinner and hopelessly lost - for God to save him. Paul requires of no one to first become a Jew - someone who perhaps might be able to boast in works of the Law - in order to be saved!


    Your discussion on Galatians:

    If a man is not in Christ, he is in bondage and at that, any bondage – ‘bondage’ of being outside Christ, WHETHER UNDER THE LAW OR UNDER THE PRINCIPLES OF THE WORLD – such a man is in bondage – is the slave of sin! That though, is NOT THE ISSUE HERE in Galatians 4, because PAUL, IN VERSES 8 TO 11, ADDRESSES THE SPECIFIC ISSUE OF THE GALATIANS’ RETURN TO THEIR FORMER, PAGAN, STATE. Afterwards in the chapter up to verse 21, Paul ‘switches’ not the least as to the Gentile character of his argument. YOU, EB, ON THE OTHER HAND, SAY, NO, THE TREND SO FAR HAD BEEN AND THEREFORE MUST REMAIN, ‘JEWISH’ THROUGHOUT, EXCEPT FOR THAT “PASSING REFERENCE ... NOT EVEN ALL FOUR OF THE VERSES ... BUT RATHER ONE: 4:8”!

    http://www.biblestudents.co.za/html/Origin%20of%20Sunday%20Sacredness%20-%20Galatians%204.htm


    Jim:

    I agree with EB.


    Luke (regarding Paul’s position and the opposition that he faced):

    (ASV) Acts 15:1 And certain men came down from Judaea and taught the brethren, [saying], Except ye be circumcised after the custom of Moses, ye cannot be saved. 2 And when Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and questioning with them, [the brethren] appointed that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question. ... 5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees who believed, saying, It is needful to circumcise them, and to charge them to keep the law of Moses. 6 And the apostles and the elders were gathered together to consider of this matter.


    Paul:

    (ASV) Galatians 1:6 I marvel that ye are so quickly removing from him that called you in the grace of Christ unto a different gospel; 7 which is not another [gospel] only there are some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. ... 2:11 But when Cephas came to Antioch, I resisted him to the face, because he stood condemned. 12 For before that certain came from James, he ate with the Gentiles; but when they came, he drew back and separated himself, fearing them that were of the circumcision. 13 And the rest of the Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that even Barnabas was carried away with their dissimulation. 14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Cephas before [them] all, If thou, being a Jew, livest as do the Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, how compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews? 15 We being Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, 16 yet knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we believed on Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the law: because by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. ... 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who did bewitch you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was openly set forth crucified? 2 This only would I learn from you. Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now perfected in the flesh? 4 Did ye suffer so many things in vain? if it be indeed in vain. 5 He therefore that supplieth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, [doeth he it] by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness. 7 Know therefore that they that are of faith, the same are sons of Abraham. 8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand unto Abraham, [saying,] In thee shall all the nations be blessed. 9 So then they that are of faith are blessed with the faithful Abraham. 10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under a curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one who continueth not in all things that are written in the book of the law, to do them. 11 Now that no man is justified by the law before God, is evident: for, The righteous shall live by faith; 12 and the law is not of faith; but, He that doeth them shall live in them. 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us; for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: 14 that upon the Gentiles might come the blessing of Abraham in Christ Jesus; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. ... 18 For if the inheritance is of the law, it is no more of promise: but God hath granted it to Abraham by promise. 19 What then is the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed (Christ) should come to whom the promise hath been made ... 21 Is the law then against the promises of God?—(that is, is the law of Moses the means to the inheritance, making the promise irrelevant?)—God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could make alive, verily righteousness would have been of the law. 22 But the scriptures shut up all things under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. 23 But before faith came, we were kept in ward under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. 24 So that the law is become our tutor [to bring us] unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But now faith that is come, we are no longer under a tutor. 26 For ye are all sons of God, through faith, in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ did put on Christ. 28 There can be neither Jew nor Greek, there can be neither bond nor free, there can be no male and female; for ye all are one [man] in Christ Jesus. 29 And if ye are Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, heirs according to promise. 4:1 But I say that so long as the heir is a child, he differeth nothing from a bondservant though he is lord of all; 2 but is under guardians and stewards until the day appointed of the father. 3 So we also, when we were children, were held in bondage under the rudiments of the world: 4 but when the fulness of the time came, God sent forth his Son, born of a woman, born under the law, 5 that he might redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. 6 And because ye are sons, God sent forth the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, Abba, Father. 7 So that thou art no longer a bondservant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir through God. 8 Howbeit at that time, not knowing God, ye were in bondage to them that by nature are no gods: 9 but now that ye have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how turn ye back again to the weak and beggarly rudiments, whereunto ye desire to be in bondage over again? 10 Ye observe days, and months, and seasons, and years. 11 I am afraid of you, lest by any means I have bestowed labor upon you in vain. 12 I beseech you, brethren, become as I [am], for I also [am become] as ye [are]. ... 21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law? 22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, one by the handmaid, and one by the freewoman. 23 Howbeit the [son] by the handmaid is born after the flesh; but the [son] by the freewoman [is born] through promise. 24 Which things contain an allegory: for these [women] are two covenants; one from mount Sinai, bearing children unto bondage, which is Hagar. 25 Now this Hagar is mount Sinai in Arabia and answereth to the Jerusalem that now is: for she is in bondage with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem that is above is free, which is our mother. 27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; Break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: For more are the children of the desolate than of her that hath the husband. 28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise. 29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him [that was born] after the Spirit, so also it is now. 30 Howbeit what saith the scripture? Cast out the handmaid and her son: for the son of the handmaid shall not inherit with the son of the freewoman. 31 Wherefore, brethren, we are not children of a handmaid, but of the freewoman. 5:1 For freedom did Christ set us free: stand fast therefore, and be not entangled again in a yoke of bondage. 2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that, if ye receive circumcision, Christ will profit you nothing. 3 Yea, I testify again to every man that receiveth circumcision, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. 4 Ye are severed from Christ, ye would be justified by the law; ye are fallen away from grace. 5 For we through the Spirit by faith wait for the hope of righteousness. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth anything, nor uncircumcision; but faith working through love. 7 Ye were running well; who hindered you that ye should not obey the truth? 8 This persuasion [came] not of him that calleth you. 9 A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump. 10 I have confidence to you-ward in the Lord, that ye will be none otherwise minded: but he that troubleth you shall bear his judgment, whosoever he be. 11 But I, brethren, if I still preach circumcision, why am I still persecuted? then hath the stumbling-block of the cross been done away. 12 I would that they that unsettle you would even go beyond circumcision. 13 For ye, brethren, were called for freedom; only [use] not your freedom for an occasion to the flesh, but through love be servants one to another. 14 For the whole law is fulfilled in one word, [even] in this: Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. 15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another. 16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are contrary the one to the other; that ye may not do the things that ye would. 18 But if ye are led by the Spirit, ye are not under the law.


    Jim:

    Throughout everything that Paul says in the text quoted above, the problem is that the Galatians are trying to please God through the law of Moses. There is a Gentile version (idol worship) and a Jewish version (the law of Moses) of the principles of the world, whereby one attempts to make oneself worthy through works of the flesh. The Galatians were saved from the Gentile version of the principles of the world (idol worship) to believe in Christ. However, someone came along and convinced the Galatians that they should now try to please God through the Jewish version of the principles of the world (the law of Moses). So the Galatians were in fact returning to the weak and lowly principles of the world, only this time to the Jewish version instead of the Gentile version. They were not returning to idol worship but were pursuing the law of Moses, which was in fact a return to the principles of the world. According to Paul, there is only one law for the believer, which is the law of love, which is fulfilled through the inward influence of the Spirit of God.


    Jim
     
  4. ascund

    ascund
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    Greetings

    I went back and checked out all the translations. First, the translators faithfully adhered to a word for word translation. The pronouns used accurately reflected what was in the Greek manuscripts. Your comment hinges on the differences between a dynamic equivalence and the word for word translation philosophies. These two approaches represent different emphases on readability and literal faithfulness to the original text, respectively. However, it should be noted that dynamic equivalence stops short of paraphrasing. Dynamic equivalence is a freer form of bringing out the author’s intended meaning.

    This fits well with your zeal to avoid differentiating two groups of Christians. However, your declarations “big mistake,” “MISTRANSLATION” and “exact OPPOSITE” are simply unfair, inaccurate, and extreme. The common sense reading of any passage is well able to avoid the error of classes of Christians. You must have encountered a warped person who tried such an argument.

    This so-called error is your fabrication alone. It does not come from any common sense reading of the text. Your reaction is well-meant but the remedy is far worse than the wrong.

    Lloyd
     
  5. 1jim

    1jim
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    Hi Lloyd,


    Lloyd:

    I went back and checked out all the translations. First, THE TRANSLATORS FAITHFULLY ADHERED TO A WORD FOR WORD TRANSLATION. The pronouns used accurately reflected what was in the Greek manuscripts. Your comment hinges on the differences between a dynamic equivalence and the word for word translation philosophies. These two approaches represent different emphases on readability and literal faithfulness to the original text, respectively. However, it should be noted that dynamic equivalence stops short of paraphrasing. Dynamic equivalence is a freer form of bringing out the author’s intended meaning.


    Jim:

    I disagree. The translators do not translate the phrase “en w kai” (in whom also / in which also) “WORD FOR WORD” the same way whenever it occurs. They allow their own personal interpretation to dictate how they translate it.

    For example, compare the following verses from the KJV:

    (KJV) 1 Corinthians 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, AND WHEREIN (en w kai) ye stand;

    (KJV) 1 Peter 3:19 BY WHICH ALSO (en w kai) he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

    (KJV) Ephesians 1:11 IN WHOM ALSO (en w kai) we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

    (KJV) Ephesians 1:13 IN WHOM YE ALSO (en w kai) [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

    (KJV) Ephesians 2:22 IN WHOM YE ALSO (en w kai) are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

    In 1 Corinthians 15:1 and 1 Peter 3:19, the KJV translators do not translate this phrase to mean “you also” or “He also,” because it is so obvious to them that the subject (“you” or “He”) is not engaging in the action of the verb in addition to someone else also engaging in that action.

    Likewise, in Ephesians 1:11, they do not translated this phrase to mean “we also,” because it seems relatively obvious to them that the subject (“we”) is not engaging in the action of the verb in addition to someone else also engaging in that action.

    However, in Ephesians 1:13 and 2:22, they translate this same phrase to mean “you also,” because they assume that the subject (“you”) is engaging in the action of the verb in addition to someone else also engaging in that action, thus dividing the believers into to mutually exclusive groups.

    In fact, they even go so far as to supply the verb in Ephesians 1:13 (“trusted”), when there is no evidence that the subject (“you”) is related to any other verb than the explicit verb “you were sealed” in the same verse.

    In Ephesians 2:22, they translate “you also” even though the subject is “all the building” (all believers) in verse 2:21, which by definition must include the referent of “you,” which makes the translation “you also” all the more strange in verse 2:22.

    So I disagree.


    Jim
     
  6. ascund

    ascund
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    Greetings

    So what? They don’t have to be consistent. 1 Cor 15:1 could have also inserted the “also” equally well without any of the implications you are trying to bring. The inclusion or absence of “also” has nothing whatsoever to do with differing groups of Christians with or without a pronoun shift. It is not obvious or even implied that the “he” and “you” are not engaging in the same action. We all stand in grace. You make a basic linguistics error by forcing the use of one en w kai in context #1 to obey the same rules in context #2. Words do not define context. Context defines words.

    Case in point, the English word run (the largest semantic domain in the English language).
    __1. I run a race.
    __2. My nose is running.

    The words “run” do not determine context; but context defines the two uses of “run.” The exact same word means two different things.

    Eph 1:11. There is no difference between “also we” and “we also” as you imply. You are stretching things to suit your theory. It doesn’t hold.

    Eph 1:13 and 2:22 both use the words in an inclusive manner to me. Both groups are doing the same thing. Paul trusted, so did his readers. How can this be two mutually exclusive groups of believers? Eph 2:22 says that both are builded together (prophets, apostles, believers). How much clearer does context have to be? “you also” is an inclusive concept that identifies the non-prophet non-apostle readers to be considered equally with the prophets and apostles. This is dramatically inclusive and teaches a singular group concept.

    Eph 1:13 The so called insertion of the word “trusted” comes from the continuation of clauses related to that same verb in verse 12. We in English sometimes do the same thing. We trusted (12) and you also (13) is a uniting technique – not a creating of mutually exclusive groups.

    1 Pet 3:19, there is only one “group” – Jesus! He is the subject in verse 18. You have a blatant pipe dream here.

    It is one thing to devise an hypothesis. It is another to declare it to be a theory when it fails scientific testing.
    Lloyd
     
  7. 1jim

    1jim
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    Hi Lloyd,


    Lloyd (previous message):

    ... the translators faithfully adhered to a word for word translation.


    Jim (in response):

    The translators do not translate the phrase “en w kai” (in whom also / in which also) “WORD FOR WORD” the same way whenever it occurs. They allow their own personal interpretation to dictate how they translate it. For example, compare the following verses from the KJV ...


    Lloyd (in response):

    So what? They don’t have to be consistent.


    Jim (this message):

    I was responding to your claim that “the translators faithfully adhered to a word for word translation.” I showed that this was not the case. And your response is, “So what?”


    Lloyd:

    The inclusion or absence of “also” has nothing whatsoever to do with differing groups of Christians with or without a pronoun shift. ... Eph 1:11. There is no difference between “also we” and “we also” as you imply. You are stretching things to suit your theory. It doesn’t hold.


    Jim:

    It certainly does. Otherwise, the KJV would say “in whom we also” in Ephesians 1:11 instead of “in whom also we.” The fact that the KJV translators imposed their own personal ideas of exclusivity on the text by expressing “you also” in Ephesians 1:13 is confirmed both by the fact that they expressed “in whom you also” in this verse instead of “in whom also you,” as in Ephesians 1:11 (“in whom also we”), and by the fact that the go so far as to insert what they presume to be an implied verb (“trusted”) to express the idea “we trusted (1:12) ... you also [trusted] (1:13)” instead of allowing the natural and explicit expression of verse 1:13 to stand: “in whom also you ... were sealed with the Holy Spirit of the promise.” I’m not imagining anything; it’s right there in the KJV print. This is a prime example of the translators forcing the text to fit their preconceptions.

    As for Ephesians 2:21-22, where Paul says, “in whom (en w) ALL THE BUILDING (all believers), being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord, in whom also (en w kai) YOU (the believers to whom the epistle is written) are being built together into a dwelling place of God in/by the Spirit,” the KJV translators again express “you also” in verse 2:22 to suggest two mutually exclusive groups of believers, even right after the statement in verse 2:21 regarding all believers (all the building), which doesn’t even begin to make sense: “all the building (all believers) ... you (the believers to whom the epistle is written) also.” Certainly, the only thing that makes sense here is “in whom ... in whom also” in regard to all believers (we). What Paul is stating to be true of all believers (we/us/our) in Ephesians 2:21-22 is this: “in whom all the building (we, all believers), being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord, in whom also we (all believers) are being built together into a dwelling place of God in/by the Spirit.” However, Paul, wishing to emphasize the inclusion of the believers to whom he is writing the epistle in order to make what he is saying more personal for them, inserts “you” (the believers to whom he is writing) where he would normally say “we” (all believers) in verse 2:22: “in whom also you are being built together into a dwelling place of God in/by the Spirit.”

    Paul does the same thing in Ephesians 1:13. What Paul is stating to be true of all believers (we/us/our) in Ephesians 1:13-14 is this: “in whom also we (all believers) [just as in verse 1:11], having heard the word of the truth, the Gospel of our (that of all believers) salvation, in whom also having believed, were sealed by the Holy Spirit of the promise, which is a guarantee of our (that of all believers) inheritance until the redemption of the possession, to the praise of His glory.” However, Paul, wishing to make what he is stating to be true of all believers (we/us/our) more personal for the believers to whom he is writing the epistle (you/your), inserts “you/your” where he would normally says “we/our” in verse 1:13: “in whom also you (the believers to whom the epistle is written), having heard the word of the truth, the Gospel of your (that of the believers to whom the epistle is written) salvation, in whom also having believed, were sealed by the Holy Spirit of the promise, which is a guarantee of our (that of all believers) inheritance until the redemption of the possession, to the praise of His glory.”

    The only way that this pronoun shift in mid-thought (“YOU ... were sealed by the Holy Spirit ... which is a guarantee of OUR inheritance”) makes sense is if Paul is using the INCLUSIVE “we,” the referent of “you” (the believers to whom the epistle is written) being INCLUDED in the referent of “our” (all believers),” Paul using “you” instead of “we” in this statement not to distinguish two different groups of believers but make what he is stating to be true of all believers (we/us/our) more personal for the believers to whom the epistle is written (you/your).

    There is nothing in the text to indicate that Paul ever deviates from the INCLUSIVE “we” (all believers) anywhere in the first two chapters of Ephesians. Those translators who suggest that Paul does deviate from the inclusive “we” have no textual basis for that suggestion; they’re imposing their own preconceptions on the text.


    Jim
     
  8. 1jim

    1jim
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    Hi Lloyd,


    Lloyd:

    Eph 1:13 and 2:22 both use the words in an inclusive manner to me. Both groups are doing the same thing. Paul trusted, so did his readers. How can this be two mutually exclusive groups of believers?


    Jim:

    If there are two different groups, neither one being included in the other, then they are mutually exclusive. That’s what mutually exclusive means.


    Lloyd:

    Eph 2:22 says that both are builded together (prophets, apostles, believers). How much clearer does context have to be? “you also” is an inclusive concept that identifies the non-prophet non-apostle readers to be considered equally with the prophets and apostles. This is dramatically inclusive and teaches a singular group concept.


    Jim:

    “ALL the building” in Ephesians 2:21 clearly means ALL believers (“we/us/our”), including the referent of “you/your” (the Ephesians). In Ephesians 2:19-21, Paul says, “So then YOU are no longer strangers and non-citizens, but YOU are the saints’ fellow citizens and family members of God, (YOU) having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, the cornerstone being Christ Jesus Himself, in whom ALL the building (the whole building, in which Paul has already explicitly included the Ephesians, thus, ALL believers), being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord.”

    “You also” in verse 2:22 contradicts the ALL-INCLUSIVE nature of “ALL the building” in verse 2:21. The only reason to say “you also” is if the referent of “you” is not already included in “ALL the building.” However, Paul has already explicitly included the referent of “you” in “ALL the building,” which renders “you also” nonsensical. That’s like saying that the three Smith children are going on a trip, ALL the Smith family (included the three Smith children) traveling to mountains, to which the three Smith children ALSO are going. It’s nonsensical.


    Lloyd:

    Eph 1:13 The so called insertion of the word “trusted” comes from the continuation of clauses related to that same verb in verse 12. We in English sometimes do the same thing. We trusted (12) and you also (13) is a uniting technique – not a creating of mutually exclusive groups.


    Jim:

    You’re not following what Paul is saying. He says in Ephesians 1:4-14, “even as He chose US in Him ... so that WE would be holy and without blemish ... having before ordained US to the adoption through Jesus Christ to Himself ... which (His grace) He gave US in the loved One, in whom WE have redemption through His blood ... in whom also WE were made an inheritance ... so that WE would be to/for the praise of His glory ... in whom also YOU, having heard the word of the truth, the Gospel of YOUR salvation, in whom also having believed, were sealed by the Holy Spirit of the promise, which is a guarantee of OUR inheritance until the redemption of the possession, to the praise of His glory.”

    There is no opportunity for the referent of “we/us/our” to change. If the referent of “we/us/our” is not ALL believers in verse 1:12 (“so that WE would be to/for the praise of His glory”), including the referent of “you/your,” then it is only some believers, in which case the referent of “we” in verse 1:12 (“in whom also WE were made an inheritance”) is only some believers, in which case there is no textual basis for the referent of any of the other first person plural pronouns (we/us/our) to be anyone other than this partial group of believers, in which case all these things that Paul says are true are only true of this partial group of believers, the only thing being true of the referent of “you” being that they “also trust” (inserted by the KJV) and that they are “sealed” by that which is the guarantee of the inheritance of only some believers (“our”).

    Paul NEVER says such things in his epistles. He ALWAYS uses “we/us/our” in reference to ALL believers whenever he discusses the things that are true of ALL believers. And it is not at all unusual for him to pronoun shift in such a discussion in order to make what he is saying more personal for the believers to whom he is writing.


    Jim
     
  9. 1jim

    1jim
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    Jim (last message):

    If the referent of “we/us/our” is not ALL believers in verse 1:12 (“so that WE would be to/for the praise of His glory”), including the referent of “you/your,” then it is only some believers, in which case the referent of “we” in verse 1:12 (“in whom also WE were made an inheritance”) is only some believers ...


    Jim (this message):

    What I meant to say what this:

    If the referent of “we/us/our” is not ALL believers in verse 1:12 (“so that WE would be to/for the praise of His glory”), including the referent of “you/your,” then it is only some believers, in which case the referent of “we” in verse 1:11 (“in whom also WE were made an inheritance”) is only some believers ...


    Jim
     
  10. 1jim

    1jim
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    The Examples of Paul’s Pronoun Shift:


    This is what Paul says is true of all believers (we/us/our):

    Romans 7:4 Therefore, my brothers, likewise (as in the analogy in verses 7:2-3) WE were made dead to the law through the body of Christ, so that WE would become (joined) to another, to the one that was raised from the dead, so that WE would produce fruit for God.

    This is how Paul says it in order to make what he is stating to be true of all believers (we/us/our) more personal for the believers to whom the epistle is written (you/your), Paul inserting “you/your” (the believers to whom the epistle is written) in this verse where he would normally say “we/us/our” (all believers):

    Romans 7:4 Therefore, my brothers, likewise (as in the analogy in verses 7:2-3) YOU were made dead to the law through the body of Christ, so that YOU would become (joined) to another, to the one that was raised from the dead, so that WE would produce fruit for God.

    This is what Paul says is true of all believers (we/us/our):

    Romans 8:12 So then, brothers, WE are obligated, not to the flesh to live according to the flesh. 13 For if WE live according to the flesh, WE are going to die. But if, by the Spirit, WE put to death the deeds of the body, WE shall live. 14 For whoever are led by the Spirit of God, these are the sons of God. 15 For WE did not receive a spirit of slavery again to fear, but WE received the Spirit of adoption, by which WE cry out, Abba, Father.

    This is how Paul says it in order to make what he is stating to be true of all believers (we/us/our) more personal for the believers to whom the epistle is written (you/your), Paul inserting “you/your” (the believers to whom the epistle is written) in verses 8:13 and 8:15 where he would normally say “we/us/our” (all believers):

    Romans 8:12 So then, brothers, WE are obligated, not to the flesh to live according to the flesh. 13 For if YOU live according to the flesh, YOU are going to die. But if, by the Spirit, YOU put to death the deeds of the body, YOU will live. 14 For whoever are led by the Spirit of God, these are the sons of God. 15 For YOU did not receive a spirit of slavery again to fear, but YOU received the Spirit of adoption, by which WE cry out, Abba, Father.

    This is what Paul says is true of all believers (we/us/our):

    1 Corinthians 6:2 Or do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world will be judged by US, are WE unworthy of the smallest judgments? 3 Do you not know that WE shall judge angels, not to mention the things of this life?

    This is how Paul says it in order to make what he is stating to be true of all believers (we/us/our) more personal for the believers to whom the epistle is written (you/your), Paul inserting “you/your” (the believers to whom the epistle is written) in verse 6:2 where he would normally say “we/us/our” (all believers):

    1 Corinthians 6:2 Or do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world will be judged by YOU, are YOU unworthy of the smallest judgments? 3 Do you not know that WE shall judge angels, not to mention the things of this life?

    This is what Paul says is true of all believers (we/us/our):

    Galatians 4:4 ... God sent His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, 5 so that He would redeem the ones under the law, so that WE would receive the adoption. 6 And because WE are sons, God sent the Spirit of His Son into OUR hearts, crying out, Abba, Father.

    This is how Paul says it in order to make what he is stating to be true of all believers (we/us/our) more personal for the believers to whom the epistle is written (you/your), Paul inserting “you/your” (the believers to whom the epistle is written) in verse 4:6 where he would normally say “we/us/our” (all believers):

    Galatians 4:4 ... God sent His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, 5 so that He would redeem the ones under the law, so that WE would receive the adoption. 6 And because YOU are sons, God sent the Spirit of His Son into OUR hearts, crying out, Abba, Father.

    This is what Paul says is true of all believers (we/us/our):

    Ephesians 1:3 Blessed (be) the God and Father of OUR Lord Jesus Christ, who blessed US in every spiritual blessing in the heavens in Christ, 4 according as He chose US in Him before the foundation of the world, so that WE would be holy and without blemish before Him in love, 5 having before ordained US to the adoption through Jesus Christ to Himself according to the pleasure of His will, 6 to/for the praise of the glory of His grace, (with) which He graced US in the one who is loved, 7 in whom WE have the redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of the transgressions, according to the wealth of His grace, 8 which He gave in abundance to US in all wisdom and understanding, 9 having made known to US the mystery of His will, 10 for the management of the fullness of the times to summarize all things in Christ, the things in the heavens and the things on the earth in Him, 11 in whom also WE were made an inheritance, having been before ordained according to the purpose of the one who works all things according to the counsel of His will, 12 so that WE would be to/for the praise of His glory, the ones who had before hoped in Christ (all believers having hoped in Christ in this life before and until being to/for the praise of God’s glory at the resurrection, compare Romans 5:1-2 and 8:18-25 and 1 Corinthians 15:19-23), 13 in whom also WE, having heard the word of the truth, the Gospel of OUR salvation, in whom also having believed, were sealed by the Holy Spirit of the promise, 14 which is a guarantee of OUR inheritance until the redemption of the possession, to/for the praise of His glory. ... 2:1 And US, being dead in OUR trespasses and sins—2 in which once WE walked according to the course of this world, according to the ruler of the power of the air, of the spirit that now works among the sons of obstinacy, 3 among whom also WE all once lived in the desires of OUR flesh, doing the wishes of the flesh and of the thoughts, and WE were by nature children of wrath, as also the rest; 4 but God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love (with) which He loved US—5 even US, being dead in the trespasses, He made alive together with Christ—by grace WE are saved—6 and He raised together (us with Christ) and He made to sit together (us with Christ) in the heavens in Christ Jesus, 7 so that He would show in the coming ages the surpassing wealth of His grace in kindness on US in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace WE are saved through faith. And this, not from US, (is) God’s gift, 9 not from works, so that no one would glory. 10 For WE are His work, created in Christ Jesus on good works, which God before made ready so that WE would walk in them. ... 19 So then WE are no longer strangers and non-citizens, but WE are the saints’ fellow citizens and family members of God, 20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, the cornerstone being Christ Jesus Himself, 21, in whom ALL THE BUILDING (WE), being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord, 22 in whom also WE are being built together into a dwelling place of God in/by the Spirit.

    This is how Paul says it in order to make what he is stating to be true of all believers (we/us/our) more personal for the believers to whom the epistle is written (you/your), Paul inserting “you/your” (the believers to whom the epistle is written) in verses 1:13, 2:1, 2:2, 2:5, 2:8 and 2:22 where he would normally say “we/us/our” (all believers):

    Ephesians 1:3 Blessed (be) the God and Father of OUR Lord Jesus Christ, who blessed US in every spiritual blessing in the heavens in Christ, 4 according as He chose US in Him before the foundation of the world, so that WE would be holy and without blemish before Him in love, 5 having before ordained US to the adoption through Jesus Christ to Himself according to the pleasure of His will, 6 to/for the praise of the glory of His grace, (with) which He graced US in the one who is loved, 7 in whom WE have the redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of the transgressions, according to the wealth of His grace, 8 which He gave in abundance to US in all wisdom and understanding, 9 having made known to US the mystery of His will, 10 for the management of the fullness of the times to summarize all things in Christ, the things in the heavens and the things on the earth in Him, 11 in whom also WE were made an inheritance, having been before ordained according to the purpose of the one who works all things according to the counsel of His will, 12 so that WE would be to/for the praise of His glory, the ones who had before hoped in Christ (all believers having hoped in Christ in this life before and until being to/for the praise of God’s glory at the resurrection, compare Romans 5:1-2 and 8:18-25 and 1 Corinthians 15:19-23), 13 in whom also YOU, having heard the word of the truth, the Gospel of YOUR salvation, in whom also having believed, were sealed by the Holy Spirit of the promise, 14 which is a guarantee of OUR inheritance until the redemption of the possession, to/for the praise of His glory. ... 2:1 And YOU, being dead in YOUR trespasses and sins—2 in which once YOU walked according to the course of this world, according to the ruler of the power of the air, of the spirit that now works among the sons of obstinacy, 3 among whom also WE all once lived in the desires of OUR flesh, doing the wishes of the flesh and of the thoughts, and WE were by nature children of wrath, as also the rest; 4 but God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love (with) which He loved US—5 even US, being dead in the trespasses, He made alive together with Christ—by grace YOU are saved—6 and He raised together (us with Christ) and He made to sit together (us with Christ) in the heavens in Christ Jesus, 7 so that He would show in the coming ages the surpassing wealth of His grace in kindness on US in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace YOU are saved through faith. And this, not from YOU, (is) God’s gift, 9 not from works, so that no one would glory. 10 For WE are His work, created in Christ Jesus on good works, which God before made ready so that WE would walk in them. ... 19 So then YOU are no longer strangers and non-citizens, but YOU are the saints’ fellow citizens and family members of God, 20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, the cornerstone being Christ Jesus Himself, 21, in whom ALL THE BUILDING (WE), being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord, 22 in whom also YOU are being built together into a dwelling place of God in/by the Spirit.

    This is what Paul says is true of all believers (we/us/our):

    Colossians 2:13 And US, being dead in the trespasses, He made alive together, US with Christ, having forgiven US all the trespasses.

    This is how Paul says it in order to make what he is stating to be true of all believers (we/us/our) more personal for the believers to whom the epistle is written (you/your), Paul inserting “you/your” (the believers to whom the epistle is written) in this verse where he would normally say “we/us/our” (all believers):

    Colossians 2:13 And YOU, being dead in the trespasses and the uncircumcision of YOUR flesh, He made alive together, YOU with Christ, having forgiven US all the trespasses.


    Jim
     

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