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Why Pray, Arminian?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Luke2427, Dec 31, 2010.

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  1. psalms109:31

    psalms109:31 Active Member

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    Revelation 3:

    14 “To the angel(messenger) of the church in Laodicea write:...

    19 Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest and repent. 20 Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me.

    We who are filled by the Spirit are the messenger. It is very biblical. He didn't force himself on them and God does not show favoritism. God is sovereign for He will do what He said He will do, save those who trust in His Son and there is nothing none of us can do about it or change it.
     
    #81 psalms109:31, Jan 1, 2011
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  2. Tom Butler

    Tom Butler New Member

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    In many ways, this is God's harshest judgment--to leave the sinner alone.

    I have a brother in the same situation as yours, and our conversations about spiritual things have gone nowhere. That part I bolded is also my prayer for my brother.

    In fact, I love my brother so much that I have asked God to over-ride his rebellious will, change his heart and make him willing.

    I suggest that we are both praying like Calvinists. Because, at this point, we want our brothers saved so intensely that we're not worried about their free will. God, whatever it takes, please do it, is my prayer.

    Obviously, I don't think God drags anybody kicking and screaming into the kingdom. But where my brother is concerned, that'd be fine with me.
     
    #82 Tom Butler, Jan 1, 2011
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  3. quantumfaith

    quantumfaith Active Member

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    I an reminded of something my OT Professor often told us.

    "Pray as if everything depended upon God, and work as if everything depended upon ourselves" Dr. J. W. Lee Professor of OT Baptist Bible Institute, Graceville Florida.
     
    #83 quantumfaith, Jan 1, 2011
  4. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    You missed an important phrase that clearly identifies the word the way we use it.

    THAT WHICH IS PREFERRED.

    We believe that every person "voluntarily selects between two things that which is preferred."

    The problem is what sinful man ALWAYS prefers.

    "PREFER" is the problem.
     
    #84 Luke2427, Jan 1, 2011
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  5. slave 4 Christ

    slave 4 Christ New Member

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    The arminian view assumes God must honor what man, in Adam, lost.
    Man did not lose choice, but preference (not in all things, but toward God) .

    God still offers Himself to the World, but man cannot, will not prefer The Light.

    This is the judgement that must be in view, Light came into the world, but man loved, ie. preferred, darkness rather than LIGHT.

    If one has the choice from an earthly father between chocolate pie and strawberry pie; even though the father knows the child will always prefer the chocolate pie, does not negate the choice given by the father.

    Man did not lose the ability to choose God, he lost his preference of God! If a man does not prefer God he will never choose God.

    God commands come to MY LIGHT, man responds sorry God I choose the darkness. (John 3:19, Romans 3:10-18)

    Man cannot change his preference for darkness, how then will a man's preference for God be changed? Ask Nicodemus? " Jesus said, "you must be born from above". NEW BIRTH = NEW PREFERENCE

    Therefore a child of God should pray, God change their preference from darkness to THE LIGHT.
     
    #85 slave 4 Christ, Jan 1, 2011
  6. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    Brother Don, I believe I answered that in the OP. We pray because God has commanded it. He has commanded it so that he can answer our prayers and accomplish two things: 1- Get glory for his goodness in being a prayer hearing and prayer answering God. 2- So that he can be good to us and express his love for us in answering the petitions of our hearts.

    The Calvinist believes God CAN save the one we pray for even if the one we pray for would never choose Christ. We believe God can hear our prayer and change the heart of the one we pray for and make him wiling to choose Christ and thus God can save him.

    The "non-reformed" do not believe that God can or will do that. They believe that one's salvation and damnation is ultimately up to his own choice- a choice that ALL unregenerate will make poorly to their doom. Thankfully the non-reformed are wrong because if they were right ALL men would go to hell because NONE seek after God and the natural man CANNOT receive the things of the Spirit of God.

    If you do not think God chose who would be saved from the very beginning you are the ONLY Christian I have ever heard of who believes this. I think even Catholics believe that God chose his elect before the foundation of the world. The Bible is so clear on this that their is almost absolute unanimity within Christendom on the matter.

    That's fine but Amy indicated that prayer simply changes the one praying but really does not affect anything else.

    The point is that most non-reformed believe that God draws all men equally. Prayer is not going to affect the soul prayed for one bit more than the one not prayed for. When it comes to salvation, as far as the lost person is concerned, prayer is useless in the Arminian or non-reformed system.

    Exactly.

    No, you did very well there.

    Does prayer to God for a lost soul avail anything for the lost soul?

    Or does it just affect the one praying?

    And if it does affect the lost soul, whether by increasing opportunities for him to be saved or whatever, does that not mean that prayer moves God to do more on behalf of some people's salvation than another?

    I like this answer.
     
    #86 Luke2427, Jan 1, 2011
  7. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    #87 Luke2427, Jan 1, 2011
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  8. glfredrick

    glfredrick New Member

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    This is essentially a Reformed thought. I only mention this because I want people in this thread to realize just how close together we actually are in doctrine!

    We find the Arminian, (or IFB who does not claim Arminianism or Calvinism), or Calvinist all saying that God is at the heart of salvation, and that Jesus is the Savior.

    We find all groups saying that they pray for God to do His will, and all realize that God WILL do His will whether or not we always like it.

    We find all groups somewhat stymied in their attempts to disavow the other groups, and eventually one side or the other makes an argument like MB above, that fits solidly into the doctrine of the other camp. That is because, as I have said repeatedly, we share the SAME BIBLE, and we cannot divide God or God's Word and remain God's people. Ultimately, we are arguing for the same issues, albeit one sees this coming first instead of that, and that (other than the hateful rhetoric we spew back and forth) is all the divides us!
     
    #88 glfredrick, Jan 1, 2011
  9. Don

    Don Well-Known Member
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    Absolutely.
     
    #89 Don, Jan 1, 2011
  10. The Archangel

    The Archangel Well-Known Member

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    Good Words!
     
    #90 The Archangel, Jan 1, 2011
  11. The Archangel

    The Archangel Well-Known Member

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    One thing I have not seen discussed in the answer to "Why Pray?" is the "what" of what prayer is supposed to accomplish.

    Are we thinking of prayer like sitting on Santa's lap? Do we give a laundry list of things we want to God? I fear most of us fall into this category.

    But, I think the major purpose of prayer is to change us. We pray and in our prayers God conforms us more closely to the image of Christ.

    So, in the end, prayer doesn't change God (for He is unchangeable); prayer changes us (for we are in desperate need of change).

    The Archangel
     
    #91 The Archangel, Jan 1, 2011
  12. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    Agreed. And I am glad that has been noted on both sides of the aisle in this thread.

    I think the primary purpose behind prayer is the primary purpose behind EVERYTHING- the glory of God.

    God tells us to ask for things and then grants them so that he might show his kindness toward us thus magnifying his grace and goodness as a God who graciously hears the prayers of his children.

    And at times, he says, "no", to display his wisdom. Later on we learn that he was wise and benevolent even for saying no.

    Thus, via our prayers God is glorified.
     
    #92 Luke2427, Jan 1, 2011
  13. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    You know, that is actually a quote from Augustine if I am not mistaken.
     
    #93 Luke2427, Jan 1, 2011
  14. slave 4 Christ

    slave 4 Christ New Member

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    The People of God follow their Shepard. His prayer in John 17 gives the why and what.

    We pray: That The Father's glory might be manifest through our lives.

    We pray: That through our voice The Father's name might be manifest unto those whom it has been given to know HIM.

    We pray: Father let the focus be on YOU not on us!
     
    #94 slave 4 Christ, Jan 1, 2011
  15. Don

    Don Well-Known Member
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    Based on the responses and tone over the last couple of pages:

    Wow.

    Arminians and Calvinists agreeing on something on the Baptist Board.

    It's a new year, indeed....

    :laugh:
     
    #95 Don, Jan 1, 2011
  16. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    Very good.
     
    #96 Luke2427, Jan 1, 2011
  17. psalms109:31

    psalms109:31 Active Member

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    My prayer

    I do pray every day that God continue to hide the truth from those who are wise and learned and depend on themselves and not God and to open the heart of the meek and humble who trust in the Lord and not their own understanding. Who accept Christ just as they are dead in their sin and let God change them and make them alive.

    This is for His good pleasure and praise and glory and magnification of God through Jesus.
     
    #97 psalms109:31, Jan 1, 2011
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  18. convicted1

    convicted1 Guest

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    "Ouch"!! That was a good one!! Kuddos!! :thumbs: :thumbs: :thumbs:
     
    #98 convicted1, Jan 2, 2011
  19. quantumfaith

    quantumfaith Active Member

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    Thanks, I did not know that. He was a great theologian and thinker.
     
    #99 quantumfaith, Jan 2, 2011
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