Featured Why Purgatory is not in the Bible - it does not exist

You mean the same person who stated that he was sure that Jesus would be able to keep Him in the end, and whose testimony was that Jesus saves to the outermost all who come unto him?

It is the very work of the trinity to ave any sinner, as its the will of the father to send and have his Son die, the Son was raised up and will keep ALL given to him by the father, and the Holy Spirit Himself seals and is an earnest pledge from god that he will keep and save a;ll of his own...

Why do you disagree with God over this?

 

, as one pastor there had a 'revelation" concerniing right baptism and speaking in tongues, and to their credit , even the assemblies refutated th

Their "Movement" came out of an Assemblies of God camp fire meeting in 1917, as on eof the pastors had a "revealtion" concerning right way to water baptise and speaking in tongues as required to show saved, but even the AOG refuted that as being heresy and error!

 

Yeshua, here is maybe easier questions to answer, being that you and other people made no attempt to answer my past questions. But,since you think you are so well equiped to answer me along with any other misled Catholic I would like you to show me the verse(s) in the Bible which gives the authority to any human creature to found another church other than the ONE CHURCH which Jesus Christ founded?
Show me the verse(s) which authorizes anyone to simply hold up a Bible and proclaim,"This is my authority."


"But when he, the Spirit of Truth, has come, He will teach you all the truth." John 16:13

Most non-Catholic sects declare that the Holy Spirit is "teaching" them the truth. However, there can be only one truth. Since the advent of Sola Scriptura and individual interpretation of Scripture, how can the Holy Spirit be in each of the thousands of sects, teaching all of them opposing viewpoints? It is to be noted that all of the following denominations teach from the same Bible, so why the differences in teaching?

1. How can the Holy Spirit tell the Lutherans the Eucharist is the true presence of Christ, and then tell the Baptists it is only a symbol?

2. How can the Holy Spirit tell the Methodists it is alright to have female ministers, and then tell the Baptists it is unbiblical?

3. How can the Holy Spirit tell the Seventh-Day Adventists that Saturday is the day of worship, and then tell the Presbyterians the day of worship is Sunday and not Saturday?

4. How can the Holy Spirit tell the Lutherans that the Blessed Virgin Mary was and remains always virgin, and then tell the Baptists she had other children?

5. How can the Holy Spirit tell the Baptists, "once saved always saved", and then tell the Church of Christ that Sola Fides is unscriptural?

6. How can the Holy Spirit tell Episcopalians to baptize infants and then tell Pentecostals infant baptism is invalid?

7. How can the Holy Spirit tell Mormons that the Holy Trinity is three separate persons, and then tell Methodists the Trinity is three persons in one GOD?

I could make a much longer list than I have posted here because every theological doctrine, except for the existence of GOD, which is taught by one non-Catholic church is denied by another. What does this show us, other than utter chaos and flummox, in the aftermath of the reformation.

Who, in all of these non-Catholic ecclesial communities, has the authority to adjudicate the many doctrinal disputes which have arisen between them? Can anyone answer this one? More important, many of the Protestant/Fundamentalist claim "scripture-only" is the authority, then explain to me how they would settle doctrinal disputes from Sola Scriptura, if the Holy Spirit is their authority and guide? Doesn't this seem to be reminiscent of the Tower of Babel story in Genesis 11:1-9, which brought with it similar consequences?

So please Yeshua, I would love for one non-Catholic to explain how the Holy Spirit guides you, yet has created multitudes of churches? How many truths are out there,when Christ taught ONE and there is ONLY ONE TRUTH, not thousands. Lakeside

 

There is only one truth. Your question reveals that you don't know the truth.
If you were to stand before God and he were to ask you, "Why should I let you into my heaven?" what answer would you give?

 

Hi Lakeside. Obviously there can be only one truth and one interpretation/meaning of any given scripture which is inspired of God.
The answer is sublimely simple. The flaw is not with God but with the understanding of the reader.
Jesus predicted/prophesied that this would happen in Matthew chapter 13.
Wherein the parable of the four soils in which the "seed" was sown - only one would bear fruit, the reason(s):

Douay-Rheims Matthew 13:18 Hear you therefore the parable of the sower.
19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, there cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart: this is he that received the seed by the way side.

In this situation the "wicked one" snatches away the word sown in his heart and he never actually comes to true faith.

Then there is persecution:

20 And he that received the seed upon stony ground, is he that heareth the word, and immediately receiveth it with joy.
21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but is only for a time: and when there ariseth tribulation and persecution because of the word, he is presently scandalized.

and then materialism:

22 And he that received the seed among thorns, is he that heareth the word, and the care of this world and the deceitfulness of riches choketh up the word, and he becometh fruitless.

Then there is the parable of the wheat and the tares ("cockle" seed in the Douay-Rheims version or "weeds").

Again

Douay-Rheims: Matthew 13:38
38 And the field is the world. And the good seed are the children of the kingdom. And the cockle are the children of the wicked one.
39 And the enemy that sowed them, is the devil. But the harvest is the end of the world. And the reapers are the angels.
40 Even as cockle therefore is gathered up, and burnt with fire: so shall it be at the end of the world.
41 The Son of man shall send his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all scandals, and them that work iniquity.

So it is not the work of the Holy Spirit which is flawed but the devil who clouds the minds of the hearers and his workers which disseminate confusion and finally even we ourselves and the lust of the flesh by which we drown out the voice of the Spirit of truth.

Obviously if the Church of Rome was once a sound local church there must have been a departure from the truth at some point in time where the voice of the Spirit was no longer heard.

HankD

 

Brother lakeside, would you like the Scriptural answer to your question, and to the text:

And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. - Luke 23:43​

If you do, please say, "yes", and I will begin a new thread on just this subject, ok, and link to it for you here.

 

Only the Apostles received the Holy Spirit. The Apostles knew that the Holy Ghost would come down upon them; for Christ promised His Apostles { only the 12 ] that after His Ascension He would send the Holy Ghost, the Spirit of Truth, to teach them all truths and to abide with them forever.
Christ sent the Holy Ghost to sanctify His Church, to enlighten and strengthen the Apostles, and to enable them to preach the Gospel.

The Church was sanctified through the coming of the Holy Ghost by receiving those graces which Christ had merited for His ministers, the bishops and priests, and for the souls of all those committed to their care.

The Apostles were enlightened through the coming of the Holy Ghost by receiving the grace to remember and understand in its true meaning all that Christ had said and done in their presence.

The Apostles were strengthened through the coming of the Holy Ghost by receiving the grace to brave every danger, even death itself, in the performance of their sacred duties.

The Apostles were: Peter, Andrew, James, John, Philip, Bartholomew, Thomas, Matthew, James, Thaddeus, Simon, and Judas Iscariot, in whose place Mathias was chosen.

St. Paul was an Apostle, but as he was not called till after the Ascension of Our Lord he is not numbered among the twelve. He is called the Apostle of the Gentiles; that is, of all those who were not of the Jewish religion or members of the Church of the Old Law.

While on his way to persecute the Christians St. Paul was miraculously converted and called to be an Apostle by Our Lord Himself, who spoke to him. St. Paul was called Saul before his conversion.

The Apostles did not fully understand when Christ Himself taught them because during His stay with them on earth they were only preparing to become Apostles; and their minds were yet filled with many worldly thoughts and desires that were to be removed at the coming of the Holy Ghost.

The Holy Ghost will abide with the Church forever, and guide it in the way of holiness and truth.

From the knowledge that the Holy Ghost will abide with the Church forever we are made certain that the Church can never teach us falsehood, and can never be destroyed by the enemies of Our Faith.

Through the coming of the Holy Ghost the Apostles received the "gift of tongues," by which they could be understood in every language, though they preached in only one.
The other 120 even said that they are drunk with talking strange languages.

Such wonderful gifts accompanied Confirmation in the first ages of the Church to prove the power, truth and divine character of Christianity to those who otherwise might not believe, and to draw the attention of all to the establishment of the Christian Church.

These signs are not continued everywhere at the present time, because now that the Church is fully established and its divine character and power proved in other ways, such signs are no longer necessary.

 

Acts 2 New International Version (NIV) This will explain that only the 12 Apostles received the much more powerful "Tongues of Fire "

The Holy Spirit Comes at Pentecost

2 When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place. 2 Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3 They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. 4 All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues[a] as the Spirit enabled them.

5 Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven. 6 When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard their own language being spoken. 7 Utterly amazed, they asked: “Aren’t all these who are speaking Galileans? 8 Then how is it that each of us hears them in our native language? 9 Parthians, Medes and Elamites; residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, 10 Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya near Cyrene; visitors from Rome 11 (both Jews and converts to Judaism); Cretans and Arabs—we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!” 12 Amazed and perplexed, they asked one another, “What does this mean?”

13 Some, however, made fun of them and said, “They have had too much wine.”

Peter Addresses the Crowd

14 Then Peter stood up with the Eleven, raised his voice and addressed the crowd: “Fellow Jews and all of you who live in Jerusalem, let me explain this to you; listen carefully to what I say. 15 These people are not drunk, as you suppose. It’s only nine in the morning! 16 No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:



17
“‘In the last days, God says,
I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
your young men will see visions,
your old men will dream dreams.

18
Even on my servants, both men and women,
I will pour out my Spirit in those days,
and they will prophesy.

19
I will show wonders in the heavens above
and signs on the earth below,
blood and fire and billows of smoke.

20
The sun will be turned to darkness
and the moon to blood
before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord.

21
And everyone who calls
on the name of the Lord will be saved.’[c]

22 “Fellow Israelites, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know. 23 This man was handed over to you by God’s deliberate plan and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men,[d] put him to death by nailing him to the cross. 24 But God raised him from the dead, freeing him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for death to keep its hold on him. 25 David said about him:


“‘I saw the Lord always before me.
Because he is at my right hand,
I will not be shaken.

26
Therefore my heart is glad and my tongue rejoices;
my body also will rest in hope,

27
because you will not abandon me to the realm of the dead,
you will not let your holy one see decay.

28
You have made known to me the paths of life;
you will fill me with joy in your presence.’[e]

29 “Fellow Israelites, I can tell you confidently that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is here to this day. 30 But he was a prophet and knew that God had promised him on oath that he would place one of his descendants on his throne. 31 Seeing what was to come, he spoke of the resurrection of the Messiah, that he was not abandoned to the realm of the dead, nor did his body see decay. 32 God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of it. 33 Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear. 34 For David did not ascend to heaven, and yet he said,


“‘The Lord said to my Lord:
“Sit at my right hand

35
until I make your enemies
a footstool for your feet.”’[f]

36 “Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah.”

37 When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?”

38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.”

40 With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, “Save yourselves from this corrupt generation.” 41 Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.

The Fellowship of the Believers

42 They devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer. 43 Everyone was filled with awe at the many wonders and signs performed by the apostles. 44 All the believers were together and had everything in common. 45 They sold property and possessions to give to anyone who had need. 46 Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts. They broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere hearts, 47 praising God and enjoying the favor of all the people. And the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved.

 

On the first Pentecost, the Holy Spirit came upon Christ’s followers. The apostolic message was proclaimed in a way that allowed each listener to hear of the mighty acts of God in his own language. Luke tells us that Peter "testified with many other arguments" (Acts 2:40). We don’t know exactly what arguments Peter used on that day, but we are told he exhorted his listeners: "Save yourselves from this corrupt generation" (Acts 2:40). Peter’s message was accepted by 3,000 people who were baptized and who devoted themselves to the teaching of the apostles, to the communal life, to the breaking of the bread, and to the prayers. "Awe came upon everyone" (Acts 2:43).

 

From verse 14 onward Peter probably addressed them in Greek, the universal language of the day which people of all different backgrounds knew. It is possible he used either Hebrew or Aramaic seeing they were all Jews.
But we do know his message was not "in other tongues or languages." The ones speaking in "other languages" were simply stating "praises to God."

This was a sermon that Peter preached. He quoted from the OT., as you referred to in your post. He gave very logical arguments. He brought his message to a climax urging each every one to repent and come to Christ.
There were about 100,00 present. And of that 100,000, it clearly says:

Act 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
--Three thousand were saved and they were added to the church in Jerusalem. This church met daily as the following verse indicates. And the Lord continued to work.
Act 2:46 And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,
Act 2:47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.
--Every day some were saved and they too were added to this same local church at Jerusalem. It grew very quickly to a very large church.

We know exactly what arguments Peter used for they are recorded right there before us. Here is where an understanding of Scripture is essential.

 

Thank you DHK for gracious reply.

 

annsni, 1.The speakers were either the 12 apostles or the 120 disciples (Acts 1:15, 26; Acts 2:1).
2.The group was small enough so that they could all sit in a house (Acts 2:2)
3.The eyewitnesses thought that all who spoke in tongues were Galileans. (Acts 2:7)
4.Some of the eyewitnesses were Judeans, who we would expect to know the difference between a Judean and a Galilean. (Acts 2:9)
5.Jesus told the apostles to wait for the Holy Spirit (Acts 1:2-5) Then two angels spoke to the apostles and called them “men of Galilee”. (Acts 2:11)
6.Joseph of Arimathea and Mary, Martha, and Lazarus of Bethany were not Galileans, but were close to Jesus in His last days.
7.The twelve apostles are specifically mentioned as being in the house at Pentecost, no one else is. (Acts 2:14)
8.When Peter explains the tongues speaking, he is described as “standing up with the eleven” and says “these are not drunk, as you suppose”. (Acts 2:14-15)

The Conclusion

The facts support that it was the twelve apostles who spoke in tongues, not the 120. The facts do not support the idea that women spoke in tongues in Acts 2:4 at Pentecost.

To insist that it was the 120, one would have to make a series of unreasonable claims, as below.

Unreasonable Claim #1

a. Either the eyewitnesses were wrong in thinking the speakers were all Galileans or

b. b) all of the 120 were Galileans

Comment

Since the whole point of the tongues here depends on the identity of the speakers (it was supernatural for Galileans to speak in other languages), the former, a), is unreasonable. Also, does it seem reasonable that the Holy Spirit would record that the eyewitnesses thought that all the speakers were Galileans if He did not want us reach that conclusion? It is also irresponsible to assert that none of the 120 disciples of Acts 1:15-26 were from somewhere other than Galilee. How could someone teach as truth a conclusion that is based on the claim that neither Joseph of Arimathea nor Mary, Martha, and Lazarus of Bethany nor any disciple from anywhere but Galilee was among the 120?

There is another unreasonable claim.

 

annsni, you are far from convincing. Why not try and elaborate on this verse that you've somehow failed to answer; "When Peter explains the tongues speaking, he is described as “standing up with the eleven” and says “these are not drunk, as you suppose”. (Acts 2:14-15)