Why the Blindness?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by J.D., Jan 11, 2007.

  1. J.D.

    J.D.
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    This is an issue which presents a conundrum for theologians of all persuasions.

    Why does God blind people (talking about spiritual blindness)?

    If men have free will, doesn't this blinding render them unable to exercise their free will?

    If men are unable to repent by their own nature, why does God blind them, seeing they are already condemned by their own unbelief?

    If men are born spiritually blind, does God render them "doubly" blind. If so, what purpose does that serve?

    If men are not born spiritually blind, why would God render them blind, if what He really wants to do is save them?

    This should be a real scrambled egg.

    Shortcut to my belief: I believe in reprobation of the non-elect. All men are blinded first by their own fallen nature, but the non-elect are additionaly blinded supernaturally so as to mark them against the work of the Spirit, and the aid of angels.

    Any thoughts?
     
  2. Brother Bob

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    Isa 42:16And I will bring the blind by a way [that] they knew not; I will lead them in paths [that] they have not known: I will make darkness light before them, and crooked things straight. These things will I do unto them, and not forsake them.

    Jhn 11:40Jesus saith unto her, Said I not unto thee, that, if thou wouldest believe, thou shouldest see the glory of God?

    Mat 9:28And when he was come into the house, the blind men came to him: and Jesus saith unto them, Believe ye that I am able to do this? They said unto him, Yea, Lord.


    It seems to me the key word here is to believe?
     
  3. Allan

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    Not really brother, for scripture bears it quite beautifuly if one will just look at things in context:
    Notice God does state the cause or reason that He blinded them:
    They RECIEVED NOT the truth. It was something the could accept or reject (recieve or not) and in their rejection of truth revealed God has blinded them or sealed them in what they desired most - as says the scriptures - for THEY did not believe the truth and were damned because of that rejection.

    Then look at the next verse which is really illuminating:
    Here it states our salvation is a work of God, that from the beginning God has chosen you to salvation THROUGH (2 things) sanctification of the Spirit (seperating you from the world) AND belief of the Truth. Notice what condemned other to hell is there rejection of Gods revealed truth. however the converse shows those whom God saved was due to the Spirit AND belief in the truth.

    In order to BE saved one MUST believe FIRST in conjuection with the sactifying work of the Holy Spirit. - Which is conviction toward repentence

    HOWEVER with that said, these are scriptures dealing with those under the rule of the Anti-Christ (in the Tribulation) or son of perdition. Though the priciple still remains.

    Edited In >>> It also bears witness to the scriptures Brother Bob posted below.
     
    #3 Allan, Jan 11, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 11, 2007
  4. webdog

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    To kind of go along with what Allan said, and what I stated on the other thread: You are just scratching the surface of what "blind" means. I believe it is a physiological as well as psychological response that God has instilled in man. If your house becomes messy, you notice it at first, but if you continue to live in it in that state, you will become "blind" to the situation you have created. I saw something recently on Animal Planet. A woman kept adopting cats until she had over 50. There was 3 feet of garbage and cat droppings in her house. They asked her how she could live like that, and she replied she didn't even notice it. The same thing happens with Gospel truth. If ignored enough, one becomes "hardened" and "blind" to the truths therein...all as a result of how God programmed us.
     
  5. Allan

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    Don't forget about 'received' either Brother Bob.

    Those two words are synonamous with regard to salvation, like...to as many as recieved Him to THEM gave He the Power to become...

    Man does not have anything to do with his salvation, but he must recieve/believe/faith in the truth that God will save him. He is responsible for the truth revealed and is judged according to whether or not he accepts God word (Truth) or not. (Which is the equivalent of accepting God or not - His name is The Word of God)

    But bring this back to the OP - blindness is due to UNBELIEF ALREADY THERE.
     
  6. psalms109:31

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    blindness

    The people Jesus was speaking about was the self-righteous pharisees.

    They thought they already had the truth and didn't need Jesus. They didn't come to Jesus to learn from Him, but to trick Him.

    I still believe why they were blinded by God was because they didn't come to Jesus as a sinner needing Him, but as the righteous to straighten Jesus out.

    Jesus was associated with tax collectors and sinners.

    As the scripture says'

    Matthew 11:25
    [ Rest for the Weary ] At that time Jesus said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children.

    When we come to Jesus we come to Him as little children. God will not open the eyes of know it all's but little children
     
  7. Allan

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    Then Psalms you have quite a bit of a problem with this verse that is in direct context of where the blindness question came from...
    And lest we forget the thousands of Jews saved after Pentacost and onward. We these men among them - probably but we are sure the Nich. and Joseph were there. WHo?? Nick, like John 3 with Good Ol Nick., and with Joseph or Aramathia (sp?) and others that were wise and prudent. It is simply a general reference toward the govermental leadership over to the Nation of Israel who was under judgment for their UNBELIEF.
     
    #7 Allan, Jan 11, 2007
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  8. psalms109:31

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    Praise God


    I have no problem with what you are saying. There is pharisees that came to Jesus as a child.

    Nicodemus didn't come to Jesus as a know it all.
     
  9. MB

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    Rejection and unbelief.
    The blinding of the Jews was temporary not permanent
    Men are not unable to repent
    Men are not born spiritually blind.
    The words "spiritually blind" do not appear in scripture together.
    Do you have support for such a belief? We are all born in sin with a sin nature yet none of us is disabled from coming to Christ once we have been convinced of Him. The lack of knowledge of Jesus is the only disability I know of. It's cure is easy all we have to do is listen.
    MB
     
    #9 MB, Jan 11, 2007
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  10. J.D.

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    (words in blue = J.D.'s response to MB)

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by J.D.
    This is an issue which presents a conundrum for theologians of all persuasions.

    Why does God blind people (talking about spiritual blindness)?

    Rejection and unbelief.

    I would think that rejection and unbelief are symptoms of blindness, not causes.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by J.D.
    If men have free will, doesn't this blinding render them unable to exercise their free will?

    The blinding of the Jews was temporary not permanent

    Let's say that's true. Was their free will taken away during the period of blindness? What would have happened to them if they had died while still in that blindness?

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by J.D.
    If men are unable to repent by their own nature, why does God blind them, seeing they are already condemned by their own unbelief?


    Men are not unable to repent

    This question is posed to my fellow Calvinists.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by J.D.
    If men are born spiritually blind, does God render them "doubly" blind. If so, what purpose does that serve?


    Men are not born spiritually blind.

    Then why did Jesus say they must be born again before they could see the Kingdom of God? Are you denying original sin? Are you saying that infants and/or small children are not in need of grace?

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by J.D.
    If men are not born spiritually blind, why would God render them blind, if what He really wants to do is save them?


    The words "spiritually blind" do not appear in scripture together.

    Neither do the words "triune God" appear together. Must not be true then.?

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by J.D.
    This should be a real scrambled egg.

    Shortcut to my belief: I believe in reprobation of the non-elect. All men are blinded first by their own fallen nature, but the non-elect are additionaly blinded supernaturally so as to mark them against the work of the Spirit, and the aid of angels.

    Any thoughts?

    Do you have support for such a belief?

    Just a nutty theory that's been kicked around the church for two thousand years or so. It's called the Doctrine of Reprobation.

    We are all born in sin with a sin nature yet none of us is disabled from coming to Christ once we have been convinced of Him. The lack of knowledge of Jesus is the only disability I know of. It's cure is easy all we have to do is listen.

    So there's nothing supernatural about getting saved? We just need to listen, and then the knowledge (facts) of salvation makes us saved if we have the good sense and intellect to receive it. Hum! and all this time I've been giving God all the credit!

    MB
     
    #10 J.D., Jan 11, 2007
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  11. MB

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    Hi JD
    What puzzles me is why you said this. I never even hinted that Salvation was anything less than supernatural.
    Salvation is all of God but man must first believe in Christ. Here's my support;
    Rom 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
    Rom 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
    Rom 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

    To add something else we are not saved by our faith but by the faith of Jesus Christ which is why it is such a miracle.

    Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
    I admit that there is nothing good in man but the man is not disabled by it.
    MB

     
  12. Brother Bob

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    The faith of Jesus Christ is the belief of Jesus Christ. Why on earth would He have to have faith in Himself. We must have the faith of Jesus Christ, in other words, we must believe in Jesus Christ. Why do you think scriptures says over and over "thy faith hath saved thee". Well that faith is in Jesus Christ and that is why scriptures says the faith of Christ.
    I don't make no sense that He must have faith in Himself. He knows who He is.

    How could it be His faith when He is the author and finisher of "our" faith?

    Hbr 12:2Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of [our] faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

    Is reprobation scripture or something added to the word of God?
     
    #12 Brother Bob, Jan 11, 2007
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  13. reformedbeliever

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    I believe this blinding is done before they are born, or even before the foundation of the world. They were blinded in God's knowledge, His perfect knowledge, which resulted in them being born with such a nature that is against God. In short, they are reprobate. He never intended for them to see.
    Oh I know some will say that is not fair.... but God is not fair, just ask Jesus.
    He has the right to dispose of His creation as He sees fit. You know...... the potter and the clay.
     
  14. Allan

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    But you missed what they were speaking about -

    That being - If God had not blinded them they would have repented and believed.
     
  15. Allan

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    Hey, what happened to answering my posts J.D. (how come there are no pouting smily faces - it's a ligit emotion)

    **pitching a fit in the corner for being left out**

    I'm just being silly :laugh:

    :thumbs:
     
  16. Jarthur001

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    Hello MB
    Lets see if I understand you right. You feel that man is not dead spirtual, but when A person rejects Christ and say No way God..never never never!! And when man will not believe in Christ and says that he will never every believe, it is at this point that God blinds him? Why? What is the meaning of the blindness?

    OK. How long did it last? Was it just a over night blinding? Were any real people that were born when this happened? If so, did any of these people that were born after the blinding, die when the blinding was still in place? If so, does this mean that some Jews lived their whole life being blinded from the truth? If this be the case, and God blinded some of mankind, do you think God also has the power and right to blind man in the fall?

    Does not the Bible teach that God must GIVE repentance UNTO the truth??

    24And the Lord's servant must not strive, but be gentle towards all, apt to teach, forbearing, 25in meekness correcting them that oppose themselves; if peradventure God may give them repentance unto the knowledge of the truth, 26and they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him unto his will.

    I think I just may stick with the Bible.

    Romans 8:7 - Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

    Ephesians 2:1,5 - And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins; ..Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

    Titus 3:3-5 - For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, [and] hating one another. But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

    John 6:44 - No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

    Matthew 15:19 - For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:

    Romans 5:12-19 - Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. But not as the offence, so also [is] the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, [which is] by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. And not as [it was] by one that sinned, [so is] the gift: for the judgment [was] by one to condemnation, but the free gift [is] of many offences unto justification. For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) Therefore as by the offence of one [judgment came] upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one [the free gift came] upon all men unto justification of life. For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

    1 Corinthians 15:21-22,45,49 - For since by man [came] death, by man [came] also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. ..And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit. ..And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

    Psalm 51:5 - Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.


    Ephesians 2:3 - Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

    Romans 6:20 - For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.

    To use your logic should we not believe in the Trinity and the Hypostatic union?


    In Christ...James
     
  17. Allan

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    Hey James,

    THe point is simply this:

    If man were dead and unable (in the definition wherewith you ascribe) then why would God have to blind them? There would be no reason for they would not be able to see in the first place.

    God would have to blind them ONLY if they COULD see


    Sorry...edited in...
    What you write is true IF man were left to himself and God did not intervene. Man would walk into destruction without compunction.
    But God DID intervene in and on behalf of man
     
    #17 Allan, Jan 11, 2007
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  18. Brother Bob

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    Seems to me they are not always blinded.

    2Cr 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

    John, chapter 1
    9: That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
    10: He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
    11: He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
    12: But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

    Titus. 2:


    "11": For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

    "12": Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

    "13": Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

    "14": Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
     
    #18 Brother Bob, Jan 12, 2007
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  19. Jarthur001

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    Hello Allan,

    I understand your point. But this holds ture with your side as well. Now I have a answer for you on this, but I will hold off for now and share later. I'll just say in short...The only system where this works is Calvinism. So...Back to your thought. If they reject Christ and will never believe, why blind them?

    If we say salvation is like going to a ball game you may see my point. From the free-will side, all of mankind have a ticket to go to the game. All men at some point know of the game. If man says he will not go to the game, at that point man does not know of the game any more. You see my point? If they reject the truth, they are then blinded from the truth, which means they do not know the truth. This would mean God makes it so that they forget what they know about the truth, so they could reject what they learned about the truth.


    I guess we must say what blindness is 1st before we can get to the point.

    I'm sure I miss-read MB in that spiritually blind is not talked about in the Bible. The words "spiritually blind" may not be found together, but the idea is clearly there. But we may have different views as to what blindness is.

    I'm sure all will agree that salvation will fix this spiritually blindness. :)

    Those that do not agree with Calvinist views on this say that Calvinism takes the "dead" idea to far. They say the fall means all men will die someday. They say dead does not mean unable to respond. Does dead mean dead?

    Rejection of a idea is easy. Sharing the right view is a bit harder. I would like to know how a non-Cal views spiritually blindness. If God wanted state the very worst state a man could be spiritually, what one word would He use? It is said that Calvinist take this idea to far. Dead is not that bad. Can a person be worst then dead? Name just one level below dead. What one word would God use if He meant dead spiritually as seen by Calvinist?

    1) What is spiritually blindness?
    2) Is it the same as spiritually dead?
    3) Who is spiritually blind?

    I'll let you know that a simply answer will not fly. :) I want details. :smilewinkgrin:


    Well, you know how I feel about God this. Classic Calvinism is the only system that works with what you stated about. If God intervenes, God can and does intervene in all ways. This is why I am Calvinist.
     
  20. psalms109:31

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    scripture

    we are making things more complicated than it really is.

    He has hidden the truth from they wise and learned and revealed the truth to little children.

    He blinds the wise and open the hearts of those who come to Jesus as a child.
     

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