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Why the usual tired old "Darby" rebuttal can RIP....

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by LadyEagle, Dec 12, 2004.

  1. LadyEagle

    LadyEagle <b>Moderator</b> <img src =/israel.gif>

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    I don't - because I am going to raise a technical point. There is a resurrection before the "first resurrection" - when the two witnesses are raised from the dead in the streets of Jerusalem, mid-point of the Great Tribulation. [​IMG]

    Therefore, the words "first" resurrection do not mean the first resurrection that takes place, but the first of it's kind. [​IMG] Just as the first of it's kind resurrection when the saints are raised from the dead at the sound of the trumpet and then we which are alive and remain go to meet Him in the air! [​IMG]

    So you see, it all lines up perfectly with Scripture. [​IMG]
     
  2. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    Nice montra ;)

    Would you like to address the specifics?
    Or are you content to just sing the top
    level stuff. My top level statement is:

    Jesus is coming to get me at the exact
    beginning of the 70th week of Daniel
    (AKA: Tribulation period, Day of the Lord,
    etc.) which is at the end of the Church
    Age (AKA: Gentile Age, this present evil
    time, etc.) in the pretribulation
    rapture/resurrection. He will come at
    theend of the 70th week of Daniel to
    destroy the Antichrist and his works.
    All this is totally scriptural (i got it
    from the scriputre, not from Darby,
    not from Scofield.

    I do know a joke about Scofield, sing this
    to the tune of ON CHRIST THE SOLID ROCK:

    My hope is built on nothing less,
    Than Schofield's notes and Broadman Press!

    (Sorry, Brodman Press, later Baptist Press,
    now LifeWay, is the printing house of
    The Southern Baptist Convention (SBC).
     
  3. LadyEagle

    LadyEagle <b>Moderator</b> <img src =/israel.gif>

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    Me, too, Brother Ed! [​IMG]

    1260 days, to be exact. [​IMG]

    Hallelujah!
     
  4. Bro Tony

    Bro Tony New Member

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    Right on LE [​IMG] 1 Corinthians 15: 20-24 NKJV
    I am looking forward to being a part of the first resurrection. Maranatha

    Bro Tony
     
  5. Charles Meadows

    Charles Meadows New Member

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    I always wondered how pretrib people account for the 2000+ year hiatus in between the 69th and 70th weeks of Daniel!

    :D
     
  6. Bro Tony

    Bro Tony New Member

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    It was not the pretrib people who placed a break between the 69th and 70th week, the Scripture does in Daniel 9. The question is not if there is a break but the length of the break. Even the full preterist has an approximately 40 year break from when the Messiah is cut off and the fullfilment of the 70th week.

    Bro Tony
     
  7. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    Fortunately Paul explaines
    it better than i can:

    Romans 11:25-26 (HCSB):

    So that you will not be conceited, brothers,
    I do not want you to be unaware of this secret:
    a partial hardening has come to Israel until
    the full number of the Gentiles has come in
    .
    26 And in this way all Israel will be saved, ...

    The 70th week works much better this way than
    to strech it in the preterist manner.
    To be a preterist you have to expand the 2½-year
    public ministry of Jesus into 3½-years.
    Then you have to compact the years from 33AD to 70AD
    (that is 27 years, 30 if you think Jesus was born
    prior to 25 Dec 0001AD.) down to 3½-years.
    But hey, in the tradition of the Roman Catholic Church
    (RCC) we compact 3 full days and 3 full nights into
    Friday evening about 5PM to Sunday Morning about 5AM
    (it is only 36 hours NOT 72 hours) and nobody gets
    bent out of shape about that. So a little stretching
    or shrinking time is frequent anyway.

    Minority report: some preterists say the first 3½-years
    was the ministry of Jesus and the second 3½-years
    was the seige of Jerusalem: 67-70AD (3½-years). To bad
    General Titus didn't show up until late 68AD :(
     
  8. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    Link: "The fact that Paul warned the Thesalonians not to
    think the time had come before the man of sin was revealed
    indicates that he expected Christians to be around when the
    man of sin was revealed. If it were not posible in Paul's
    view of things for the Thessalonians he was writing to to
    be around when the man of sin was revealed, why would he have written it."

    I believe the rapture will occur on one 24-hour day
    and the Antichrist will be revealed the next 24-hour day.
    So we agree - yes?

    Link: "Jesus spoke of two resurrections. Blessed is he who partakes of the first resurrection. Two resurrections occur at the end of the whole story about the Tribulation, the beast, etc. at the _end_ of the book of Revelation. The first resurrection occurs long before the Second, but in the chronoloyg of Revelation, it is still after the Tribulation."

    I show from the Bible two resurrections jointly called the
    "first Resurrection" Here is my teaching:
    BTW, Darby does not agree with Ed ;)
    ----------------------------------------
    \o/ Glory to the Lord \o/

    \o/ Praise be to Jesus \o/

    Five Resurrections
    Found in the Holy Bible
    Compared and Contrasted

    The Lord God is a resurrecting God.

    Definitions:

    New Testament: God's contract on goy
    Old Testament: God's contract on Yisrael
    Resurrection: a person who was dead is alive
    Saint: a person on God's list (AKA: Book of Life)
    Tribulation: AKA: The Time of Jacob's Trouble (Jeremiah 30:4-7);
    Yisarel passing under the rod (Ezekiel 20:34-3;
    Melting Pot (Ezekiel 22:19-22);
    Time of Trouble (Daniel 12:1); etc.
    Resurrection: a person who was dead is alive
    goy - Yisraeli term for gentiles (probably slightly derogotory)
    Yisrael - Transliteration of the Hebrew term for "Israel" into English.

    How to get on God's list:

    Romans 10:9 (KJV): That if thou
    shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt
    believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from
    the dead, thou shalt be saved.



    1. Resurrection of Jesus
    WHO: Jesus
    WHEN: 33AD
    WHERE: Jerusalem
    WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
    HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
    WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal; because of the
    resurrection of Jesus, all the other resurrections
    are possible
    References: Matthew 28:6, Mark 16:6, Luke 24:6-8


    2. Resurrection of some Old Testament Saints
    WHO: Some of those who died before Jesus believeing God, especially
    those who believed in God's Messiah
    WHEN: 33AD
    WHERE: mostly in Jerusalem
    WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
    HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
    WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal

    3. Resurrection of the New Testament Saints
    WHO: Church age (AKA: times of the Gentiles) Saints; balance
    of the Old Testament Saints
    WHEN: Some date after 26 May 2004;
    at the end of the Church Age; at the beginning of
    the Tribulation
    WHERE: Worldwide
    WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
    HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
    WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal;
    this resurrection is followed in but a
    moment by the translation of the living
    saints into a glorified heavenly body like
    that of Jesus
    References: 1 Corinthians 15:52, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

    4. Resurrection of the Tribulation Saints
    WHO: Those beheaded for faith in Jesus; those
    who reject the Mark of the Beast
    WHEN: at the end of the Tribulation; at the
    beginning of the 1,000-year reign of Jesus
    WHERE: worldwide
    WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
    HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
    WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal
    References: Revelation 20:4-6,

    5. Resurrection of the non-Saints
    WHO: All those throughout time who have rejected Jesus
    WHEN: At the close of the 1,000-year reign of Jesus;
    at the beginning of eternity
    WHERE: worldwide
    WHY: i don't know, God does
    HOW: i don't know, God does
    WHAT: Raised to eternal shame & damnation
    References: Revelation 20:12-15

    NOTE: The delineation of the five revealed
    resurrections above
    does not preclude other resurrections. The Lord God
    is a resurrecting God and His hand is not shortened
    by his revelation to us or
    by our understaning of His revelation to us.
    For example: Two Witnesses shall
    be resurrected in the middle of the Tribulation.

    There is a pastoral picture of the four resurrections
    for which the resurrection of Jesus was a precusor
    (numbered here as above):

    2. The First Fruits (Matthew 27:22-53)

    3. The Harvest (1 Corinthians 15:51-54, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17)

    4. The Gleanings (Revelation 7:14, 20:4)

    5. The Tares (Matthew 13:28-30)

    Sometimes the Holy Bible calls resurrections 2-4, the resurrections
    of the just: The First Resurrection (because all the
    resurrections of the just preceede the resurrection
    of the unjust).

    The following scriptures seem to imply a simultaneous
    resurrection of the just and the wicked dead:
    Daniel 12:2, John 5:28-29 (all resurrected
    in the same hour), Acts 24:15. Revelation 20-4-6
    cleary notes that the just are raised one day
    (a 1,000 year long day) before the unjust.

    CAUTION: The numbering scheme 1 to 5 above was arbitrarliy
    assigned to enable the discussion. There is nothing
    sacred or Biblical about this numbering scheme.

    May Jesus our Savior and our Master be Praised!

    Note that ressurrections #2 and #3 are accompanied
    by a rapture of living saints.

    --compilation by ed, incurable Jesus Phreaque
    ---------------------------------------------
     
  9. church mouse guy

    church mouse guy Well-Known Member
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    I don't - because I am going to raise a technical point. There is a resurrection before the "first resurrection" - when the two witnesses are raised from the dead in the streets of Jerusalem, mid-point of the Great Tribulation. [​IMG]

    Therefore, the words "first" resurrection do not mean the first resurrection that takes place, but the first of it's kind. [​IMG] Just as the first of it's kind resurrection when the saints are raised from the dead at the sound of the trumpet and then we which are alive and remain go to meet Him in the air! [​IMG]

    So you see, it all lines up perfectly with Scripture. [​IMG]
    </font>[/QUOTE]Yeah, right. Paul says--as you well know and everyone else well knows--that the dead in Christ will be raised first and then the living will be caught up. Firstfruits and the first resurrection are clearly defined as two different things. One pre-trib advocate even went so far as to inform me that there are two resurrections. I agreed.

    Cleverness does not count. The first resurrection is the one of the good that happens at the time of the rapture which John says takes place after Satan is bound in the pit for 1000 years.
     
  10. Phillip

    Phillip <b>Moderator</b>

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    Where does John say this Church Mouse guy? I'm not saying he doesn't, but can you give me scripture. Please?
     
  11. LadyEagle

    LadyEagle <b>Moderator</b> <img src =/israel.gif>

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    Well, CMG, you can wait for over 1000 years if you want to. I'm either getting my glorified body or getting caught up on the first round before the GT and 1000. [​IMG]

    However, if in the near future 2 men start appearing in the streets of Jerusalem who are prophesying and breathing fire, who keep it from raining and begin bringing plagues on the earth, that will be a clue that you were right after all.

    Please PM me the moment you see this on CNN! Thanks. [​IMG]
     
  12. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    Church mouse guy: "The first resurrection is the one of the good
    that happens at the time of the rapture which John says
    takes place after Satan is bound in the pit for 1000 years."

    Church mouse guy: "The first resurrection is the one of the good ... "

    True. That is the defintion of "first resurrection". As shown
    above there are multiple resurrecitons incuded in "first
    resurrection" and for good measure for sure one and maybe two
    raptures. BTW, there is nothing about "first" that cannot be
    applied to multiple member sets. Though most people who haven't
    have anything past grade school arithemetic don't understand it,
    there is a difference between "first" and "one". It has to
    do with order and value.

    Church mouse guy: "the first resurrecion ... happens at
    the time of the rapture ... "

    Actually, for each rapture, there is a resurreciton immediately
    presceeding it. All resurrections of the just occur before
    Satan is bound for 1,000 years.

    Church mouse guy: " ... John says
    takes place after Satan is bound in the pit for 1000 years"

    John says the first resurrection all takes place befor
    Satan is bound.
    says weighs more to me than Darby.
     
  13. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    Amen, Sister LadyEagle -- Preach it! [​IMG]
     
  14. church mouse guy

    church mouse guy Well-Known Member
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    Here again the confusion on the part of those who hold the pre-trib doctrine prevails. Some say that when the rapture occurs the dead in Christ are raised first. Others say that the first resurrection that John mentions is the resurrection of Tribulation saints at the end of the Tribulation. Now we are told that the first resurrection is that of Jesus or that of the 2 witnesses.

    But are you mixed up about the 1000 years? John says that the dead in Christ are raised just before the 1000 years begins.

    I don't watch Clinton News Network so I won't be sending you a PM.

    What desperately needs to be done is for someone to issue a standard pre-trib doctrinal statement and explanation so that we do not have so many variations to deal with.
     
  15. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    Church Mouse Guy: "What desperately needs to be done
    is for someone to issue a standard pre-trib doctrinal
    statement and explanation so that we do not have so
    many variations to deal with. "

    Fat chance. Remember the saying:
    If you want four doctrines, ask three Baptists.]
    Come on, no two of us pretribs agree on the same exact eschatology
    yet we all read the same scriptures.
    What would be interesting is for Church mouse guy to
    tell us his eschatology so we can pick it to pieces :(

    Until then, take only statements made here. Don't assume
    that i've studied millionare Tim LaHaye's books or that i
    even argue like him. Thank you for cooperating.
     
  16. church mouse guy

    church mouse guy Well-Known Member
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    Church mouse guy: "The first resurrection is the one of the good
    that happens at the time of the rapture which John says
    takes place after Satan is bound in the pit for 1000 years."

    Did I say that or do your quotation marks just refer to your point counterpoint, Ed?

    I don't say that John says that the rapture takes place after Satan is bound just before the 1000 years begins. I say that John says that the first resurrection takes place at that time.

    Most people say that the first resurrection is the resurrection of the good or the dead in Christ. And most people say that the resurrection of the dead in Christ happens a split second before the rapture.

    The second resurrection is the resurrection of the damned--it happens at the end of the 1000 years.
     
  17. church mouse guy

    church mouse guy Well-Known Member
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    I fully intend to start a post-trib thread before the end of the year. I have misplaced my notes on the subject at the moment, but I will be glad to expound the doctrine of the post-tribulation rapture from the Scripture.
     
  18. LadyEagle

    LadyEagle <b>Moderator</b> <img src =/israel.gif>

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    Well, CMG, hurry up and find your notes. All of us pre-tribbers are waiting to pick it to pieces, LOL. [​IMG] But make it snappy because the Rapture could happen any day now! [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  19. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    here is what you said, cut and pasted:
    Phillip is confused by it and says:
    "Where does John say this Church Mouse guy? I'm not saying
    he doesn't, but can you give me scripture. Please?"

    Of course, what you meant to say, well
    tell us, i no sometimes i get konfuzed 2.
     
  20. rjprince

    rjprince Active Member

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    LadyEagle,

    When he finds the notes, I'm next in line behind you guys!
     
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