Why Was Judas Remorseful

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by saturneptune, May 24, 2012.

  1. saturneptune

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    Mentioned briefly in another thread was a comparison of Peter and Judas. Both betrayed Christ, one was saved and the other lost. Peter expressed Godly sorrow immediately after the rooster crowed. Judas expressed remorse after Jesus was crucified. What was his motive in attempting to give back the silver to the Pharisees, then hanging himself? Does anyone think he was not lost?
     
  2. Jedi Knight

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    2 Corinthians 7:10 Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death. Notice the later. And yes Judas was lost. You said "Judas expressed remorse AFTER Jesus was crucified"? Might wana recheck the time line.
     
    #2 Jedi Knight, May 24, 2012
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  3. saturneptune

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    My time line is correct:
    After Jesus died, Judas went back to the temple
    and told the priests he didn't want the money
    any more and tossed it back in the temple. Judas
    then went and hanged himself and died. See Mat 27
    for the entire account of this.

    That is not the point, and yes, I believe Judas was lost. Why would he bother to express sorrow at all? If he was vile enough to do what he did, why bother? All he did was hasten his entrance into hell.
     
  4. Scarlett O.

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    He had guilty conscience. In fact, he had a racking and tortured conscience. But that doesn't save anybody. No matter how horrible we feel over something we have done and regret it all of our days and can't take the despair over our behavior and would mortgage our homes to take it back....

    .....guilty feelings doesn't save anybody.

    Don't you think that more than likely he didn't really think that they would kill Jesus? The Bible says that he admits that Jesus was "innocent" and that's what drove him to despair.

    He was just ticked off that this Jesus that he had been devoted to for three years was not the political and social Messiah that he was looking for. And in his anger over that - he allowed the devil a foothold into his heart.

    He wasn't serving the Son of God. He never did.
     
  5. saturneptune

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    I think that is an excellent reason. You are right. A tortured conscience does not save. See Saul in the Old Testement. However, a person with a tortured conscience can turn to Jesus Christ for salvation, and Christ will heal his tortured soul.
     
  6. kyredneck

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    70 Jesus answered them, Did not I choose you the twelve, and one of you is a devil?
    71 Now he spake of Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve. Jn 6

    Like Cain, Judas was of the evil one.

    Yea, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, Who did eat of my bread, Hath lifted up his heel against me. Ps 41:9

    Even being unregenerate I can see Judas thinking along the same lines afterward, 'Mine own familiar friend, whom I betrayed unto death'.
     
  7. saturneptune

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    His case is one of the saddest in human history.
     
  8. kyredneck

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    For real; what a miserable wretch he was.
     
  9. matt wade

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    Yes, read Matthew 27 for the actual timeline of these events. You'll see Judas hung himself before Jesus was crucified.
     
  10. Jedi Knight

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    Ahem!:wavey:
     
  11. saturneptune

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    To Mr. Theological Scholar Wade:

    Sometimes one must do a more in depth study than following the chronological numbers in a given Chapter to understand the order of events. It is not always a simple solution:

    Judas Iscariot


    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    The first part of this article will address the question "When did Judas die?" The second part will address the question "Is Judas in Heaven or Hell?"




    Part One: When did Judas Die?
    Let us begin our study with I Corinthians 15:3-5, according to which the resurrected Christ appeared to the twelve.


    1 Corinthians 15:3-5, "For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:"
    For many, this scripture has been a stumbling block since, according to tradition, Judas died before the crucifixion and therefore, if this tradition was right, then here the Word of God should have written "eleven" instead of "twelve".

    The investigation below starts by confirming that the "twelve" of the above passage are the well known "twelve" that included Judas. After that, we continue with a detailed analysis of the gospel records that refer to the post-resurrection appearance of Jesus that happened at the evening of the "first day of the week". Though this appearance is not the appearance to the twelve, it is very important to examine it since, as we will see, Judas was there when it happened. Apart from this, the examination of this appearance is necessary for a good understanding of the gospel record of the appearance to the twelve. After that, the investigation will continue with the examination of the traditional view and the passage of Matthew 27:3-5 that is used to support it. Finally, the article will close with the study of another passage that will help us to specify the time of Judas' death more accurately.
     
  12. saturneptune

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    The Twelve of I Corinthians 15:5
    According to the above given passage of I Corinthians 15, the resurrected Christ appeared to the twelve. To reconcile this reference with the tradition according to which Judas died before the crucifixion, it has been suggested that the twelve here are the old eleven disciples plus Matthias that substituted Judas in Acts 1:26. However, a conjecture like this is not supported neither from the references of the Word of God regarding the time that Matthias was counted as one of the twelve nor from the passages of the gospels that refer to some of the post-resurrection appearances of Jesus Christ. But let's examine this issue in more depth.

    It is evident that there is no change in a specific group of people if there is no change in its composition. The original composition of the group of the "twelve" disciples is given in Matthew 10:1-4 as well as in Mark 3:14-18 and in Luke 6:13-16. Luke 6 for example tells us:


    Luke 6:13-16, "And when it was day, he called unto him his disciples: and of them he chose twelve, whom also he named apostles; Simon, (whom he also named Peter) and Andrew his brother, James and John, Philip and Bartholomew, Matthew and Thomas, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon called Zelotes, And Judas the brother of James, and Judas Iscariot, which also was the traitor."
    As it is evident from this passage, the original composition of the group of the twelve included Judas Iscariot. Many other passages in the gospels also witness that Judas Iscariot was "one of the twelve" (Matthew 26:14,47, Mark 14:10,43, Luke 22:3,47, John 6:71).

    Thus, whenever we read "the twelve" we should understand it as a term that denotes the group of the above twelve people, except if there is a change in the composition of this group. In this later case, when the reference is to events before the change the number "twelve" should be understood as the group of the above twelve men, while when the reference is to events after the change, the meaning has to be adjusted correspondingly. In our case, the event that the Word of God speaks about in I Corinthians 15:5 is the resurrection of Jesus Christ and his appearances that followed it.

    Therefore, the simple question that has to be asked is what was the composition of the group of the twelve at the time of the resurrection? Was Matthias numbered with the eleven at that time? The exact time and the process that was followed for the inclusion of Matthias in the group of the remaining eleven disciples is given in Acts 1:15-26. From this record we learn that sometime between the ascension and the day of Pentecost, Peter proposed the substitution of Judas by someone else. The candidates were two: the one was "Joseph called Barsabas" and the other was "Matthias." How the choice was made and who was chosen is described in Acts 1:24-26


    Acts 1:24-26, "And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen, That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place. And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles."
    Now, since only at that point Matthias was numbered with the eleven, this obviously means that he wasn't numbered before (the Greek word that is translated as "numbered" in the above passage is the verb sugkatapsephizo, which means "to be numbered with", "to be counted with" or "to be calculated with" and denotes the inclusion of something/someone into a particular group). Therefore, whenever we meet the expression the "twelve" and the reference is to events that happened before Acts 1:26 what is meant is the twelve of Luke 6:13 that included Judas. On the other hand, when this expression refers to events that happened after the inclusion of Matthias then what is meant is the new composition of the group that excluded Judas and included Matthias. Bearing this in mind we should not have any problem to understand who are the twelve of I Corinthians 15. The corresponding passage refers to the appearance that happened before "Matthias was numbered with the eleven."

    Therefore, since at that time, Matthias was not yet one of the twelve, the expression "by the twelve" of I Corinthians 15 refers to the original twelve of Luke 6:13 that included Judas. This does not mean that Matthias didn't see the resurrected Jesus, because he did, indeed, see it. In fact, in his proposal given in Acts 1:15-23, Peter says:


    "Therefore, of these men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, beginning from the baptism of John to that day when he was taken up from us, one of these must become a witness with us of his resurrection" (Acts 1:21-22).
    For Matthias to be proposed (Acts 1:23) it means that he fulfilled all these requirements. The fact that except of the twelve others also saw the resurrected Christ is also confirmed by the gospels (Luke 24:33-36) and by I Corinthians 15:6 that speaks for an appearance to "five hundred brethren." The point, therefore, is not whether Matthias was a witness of the resurrection for he certainly was. The point is whether, at the time of the resurrection, he was counted with the eleven apostles. As scripture tells us, he was not.

    Some claim that, even though Matthias was not an apostle at the time of Jesus' resurrection, he was an apostle at the time the book of Corinthians was written. Therefore, they referred to Matthias as an apostle (in 1 Corinthians 15:3-5) for that reason. However, this is not supported anywhere in scripture.

    For example, scripture does not say that "Paul, an apostle of Christ, was consenting unto his (the apostle Steven's) death" in Acts 8:1. Nor does it say "Paul, an apostle of Christ, he made havock of the church, entering into every house, and haling men and women committed them to prison" in Acts 8:3. Scripture does not refer to Paul as an apostle of Christ at this point in time, because Paul was not ordained an apostle at the time he was persecting believers in Christ, even though he was an apostle at the time the book of Acts was written. Likweise, scripture does not say "And as Jesus passed forth from thence, he saw a man, named Matthew, an apostle of Christ, sitting at the receipt of custom" in Matthew 9:9. Why? Because Matthew was not ordained an apostle when he collected taxes for Caesar. Niether were Peter and Andrew called apostles of Christ when they were commercial fishermen (Matthew 4:18), even though they were all apostles at the time the gospels were written. The reason is because they were not apostles at this point in time. They were only referred to as apostles from the point in history that they were ordained as apostles. The same goes for Matthias, who was ordained an apostle of Christ after the resurrection of Jesus.

    Further evidence regarding the presence of Judas after the resurrection is given by the gospel records of two of the post-resurrection appearances of Jesus.
     
  13. saturneptune

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    The Appearance "at the evening of the first day of the week"
    This appearance is described in three out of four gospels. For a complete picture it is needed to examine each of these records carefully. Let's begin with John.





    The Witness of John
    The witness of John to this appearance is given in John 20:19:


    John 20:19, "Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you."
    Though this verse does not specifically state who of the disciples were present at this appearance, verse 24 of the same chapter tells us who was not present:


    John 20:24, "But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came."
    So from the above record we can conclude that in the appearance that happened at the "evening of the first day of the week" Thomas was certainly not there. This information has vital significance for the right understanding of the corresponding records of Mark and Luke and thus we should keep it in mind.





    The Witness of Luke
    Having examined the witness of John, let's examine the witness of Luke about the same appearance. The four gospels complement each other and to have a complete picture of something we should examine all the available records making sure that all of the them refer to the same event. One of the most frequent reasons of errors in the division of the Word of God, that is especially relevant in the gospels, is the confusion of similar things as identical. Indeed, it is not at all necessary; just because two records are similar (the healing of a blind man for example) it does not mean these records refer to the same exact event. Whether they do so or not is something that has to be determined after a careful examination of the context of the corresponding records.

    Returning to our topic, the witness of Luke to the post-resurrection appearance that occurred at "the evening of the first day of the week" is given in chapter 24. Verse 1 informs us that the day is "the first day of the week." Then verse 13 tells us that two of the disciples (these disciples didn't belong to the group of the twelve) "went that same day" [i.e. the first day of the week] to a village called Emmaus which was seven miles from Jerusalem. Somewhere in this journey Jesus joined them and verses 15-31 give a description of the wonderful fellowship that they had together and how at the end "their eyes were opened and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight" (verse 31). When these disciples arrived at Emmaus, it was "toward evening" as verse 29 says. After they recognised Jesus, Luke 24:33 tells us what these two disciples did:


    Luke 24:33, "And they rose up the same hour, and returned to Jerusalem, and found the eleven gathered together, and them that were with them,"
    Bearing in mind that Emmaus was no more than just 7 miles from Jerusalem and that when they arrived at Emmaus it was "toward evening," but not evening, we can conclude that by the time they arrived at Jerusalem it was already evening, "the evening of the first day of the week." What happened at that evening is given in verses 33-36:


    Luke 24:33-36, "And they [the two disciples that had just arrived at Emmaus] rose up the same hour, and returned to Jerusalem, and found the eleven gathered together, and them that were with them, Saying, The Lord is risen indeed, and hath appeared to Simon. And they told what things were done in the way, and how he was known of them in breaking of bread. And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you."
    Since this appearance happened at the evening of the first day of the week, it is therefore the same with the one that John speaks about. Thus, the events described by John and Luke are not only similar but also identical. However, while John tells us that Thomas was not there, without telling us who was there, Luke adds to our knowledge that present at this appearance were "the eleven...and them that were with them." Many people read this passage and think that the reason the text speaks of eleven was because Judas was already dead, as tradition teaches. However, the record of John shows very clearly that the disciple that was absent in this appearance was not Judas, but Thomas. In turn, this means that Judas was present at this appearance and saw the resurrected Jesus. This also confirms the record of I Corinthians 15 according to which Judas was alive after the resurrection.




    The Witness of Mark
    The witness of Mark to the post-resurrection appearance that occurred "at the evening of the first day of the week" confirms the conclusions drawn from the combined examination of John and Luke.


    Mark 16:9-13, "Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils. And she went and told them that had been with him, as they mourned and wept. And they, when they had heard that he was alive, and had been seen of her, believed not. After that he appeared in another form unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country. And they went and told it unto the residue: neither believed they them."
    These "two of them" are the two disciples that were on their way to Emmaus. The phrase "in another form" shows the variability of the resurrected body of Jesus.


    Mark 16:14, "Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen."
    This record that again refers to the appearance at the evening of the first day of the week speaks again for the eleven. Knowing that the absent one was Thomas, it is clear that Judas was there. (Though the verse does not specifically state that it was the evening of the first day of the week, an examination of the appearance shows that it was the first that was made to the group of the eleven. Since according to the other gospel records the first appearance happened at the evening of the first day of the week it is easy to infer that it is the same with the one described by John and Luke).

    From all the above it is clear that Judas was alive and saw the resurrected Jesus. It is therefore not strange that I Corinthians speaks for an appearance to the twelve. Even if I Corinthians 15 didn't say anything about an appearance to the twelve, an examination of the gospel records could very easily prove that Judas was still alive after the resurrection.




    The Appearance to the Twelve
    After all this, the reader may ask, "Where does the appearance to the twelve appear in scripture?" The appearance to the twelve is also described in one of the gospels, namely in John's gospel.


    John 20:24, "But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came."
    This "them" refers to the disciples that were present at the appearance that happened at the evening of the first day of the week [John 20:19] and which Thomas missed. According to the other gospel records, we know that, except for Thomas, all the other eleven disciples were there.


    John 20:25-26, "The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe. And after eight days again his
     
  14. saturneptune

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    The apostles therefore that Jesus had chosen and to whom Acts 1:2 refers are the well known twelve apostles that included Judas. Bearing this in mind we can continue the reading of the passage:


    Acts 1:1-10, "The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach, Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen: To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God: And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence. When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth. And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;"
    All these "whom", "them" and "they" refer to the apostles that Jesus had chosen and therefore, according to Luke 6:13, included Judas. Thus, since there is no other indication to the contrary, by following the record we can say that Judas should have been there, when the ascension happened. However, it is interesting that verses 10 and 11 of the same chapter tells us that "two men stood by them in white apparel, who also said, Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven?...." From the apostles that Jesus had chosen, only Judas was not a Galilean. This indicates that Judas was not present when the angels spoke. On the other hand, there is no indication that he was absent from the ascension. Therefore, the conclusion that one could draw is that Judas saw the ascension and then he left before the angels spoke. Sometime between this time and the time that Peter spoke is when Judas committed suicide. That this happened after the ascension is also indicated by the fact that had Judas committed suicide earlier, Jesus would have substituted him. Otherwise, it would be strange for Peter to do something that Jesus didn't think as appropriate to do. However, because he committed suicide sometime after the ascension and Jesus wasn't there any longer to make the substitution, Peter resumed this responsibility.

    Having clarified all the above we can give a brief conclusion to the first part of this study. The conclusion is that Judas died sometime between the ascension and the day that Peter spoke, which was earlier than the day of Pentecost. After he saw that Jesus was condemned, he repented and returned to the group of the other disciples. We don't know when exactly this happened but we do know that he was with them "at the evening of the first day of the week" (i.e. shortly after the resurrection). As a result of his repentance, Judas was forgiven and he was accepted back. Indeed, there is no indication that Jesus treated him differently from the others. However, though Judas was forgiven, he didn't forgive himself but permitted the condemnation to take over his mind and finally to destroy him.




    What's the Difference if Judas died Before or After the Crucifixion?
    For those that will ask this question, it has to be said that we didn't simply try to find the exact time at which Judas died. This alone might have minor significance if we didn't have problems with the accuracy of the Word of God. Surely, we would have no problem if Judas died before the crucifixion if the Word told us so. In contrast, I would have many problems if in one place the Word, as tradition thinks, tells me that he is dead before the crucifixion, and in another I'm told that he is alive after the resurrection. Then, the examination is no longer a simple examination of the time that Judas died but an examination of the accuracy of the Word of God. The time therefore that Judas died does make a difference, and in fact a very big difference: the difference between an unerring Word of God, as indeed the scripture is, and a word that has errors as tradition makes the scripture to look like.
     
  15. saturneptune

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  16. saturneptune

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    Do you like your crow fried or baked?
     
  17. saturneptune

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    Ahem, ya say, I say, got ya.
     
  18. saturneptune

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    Jedi and Matt,
    I am just poking a little fun. It does not make any difference to me when he died. When I was younger, I went through this study. It really makes no material difference. I enjoy both of your posts.
     
  19. matt wade

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    Smoked, till it's falling off the bone, is good for me! :love2:
     
  20. saturneptune

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    You got a good sense of humor. Never lose it.
     

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