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Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by OldRegular, Mar 4, 2014.

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  1. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    By the numbers
    1) Yes I believe Romans 9:16 God’s choice of individuals for salvation does not depend on their faith, but upon God’s mercy.
    2) God’s choices can be conditional or unconditional, corporate or individual, including God’s conditional choice through faith in the truth for individual salvation.
    3) As indicated in post 27, I believe Romans 9 is about God’s right to make choices such as for salvation, like the right of the Potter to make different pots from one lump of clay.
     
  2. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Besides the fact that Acts 7:51 is a conviction from the Holy Ghost of unregenerate Jews long history of resisting the Holy Ghost which culminated with them committing the ultimate act of resisting the Holy Ghost by murdering Christ, it has nothing to do with the Reformed precept of Irresistible Grace. Man can no more resist the birth from above any more than he can resist his physical birth. He is totally passive in both:

    who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. Jn 1:13


    24 The Jews therefore came round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou hold us in suspense? If thou art the Christ, tell us plainly.
    25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believe not: the works that I do in my Father`s name, these bear witness of me.
    26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep. Jn 10

    I can't imagine a more powerful presentation of the gospel than that given by Christ Himself, and yet these didn’t believe. Why? They didn’t belong to Him. They weren’t ‘born of God’.

    Again:

    42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I came forth and am come from God; for neither have I come of myself, but he sent me.
    43 Why do ye not understand my speech? Even because ye cannot hear my word.
    44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father it is your will to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and standeth not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father thereof.
    45 But because I say the truth, ye believe me not. Jn 8

    If one is not FIRST born of God, if God is not their father, they cannot love Christ, or understand His speech, or hear His word.

    Paul reiterates the same here:

    12 But we received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is from God; that we might know the things that were freely given to us of God.
    14 Now the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him; and he cannot know them, because they are spiritually judged. 1 Cor 2

    Sometimes, actually oftentimes, your reasoning totally escapes me. Well, that’s what it is though, your reasoning; it’s your complaint, certainly not Christ’s complaint:

    He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by the knowledge of himself shall my righteous servant justify many; and he shall bear their iniquities. Isa 53:11

    The children of the heavenly Zion cannot resist their birth from above.

    The Calvinists are dead on spot here, unlike you they accept the clear teaching of Christ Himself:

    .....If any one may not be born from above, he is not able to see the reign of God....If any one may not be born of water, and the Spirit, he is not able to enter into the reign of God.....It behoveth you to be born from above… he who is doing the truth doth come to the light, that his works may be manifested, that in God they are having been wrought; Jn 3:3,5,7,21 YLT

    Before one can enter or even see the kingdom, or come to Christ (the two are synonymous in this discourse), one must FIRST be IRRESISTABLY born from above.

    God has already wrought within those that come to Christ.
     
    #102 kyredneck, Mar 9, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 9, 2014
  3. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Aaron sums it up nicely:

    "Ever and anon the noncalvinist cries, Why doth He yet find fault?"
     
  4. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    ...FTR, post #98 was 'tongue in cheek' on my part; was trying to provoke some dialog into the eternal realm, didn't work, never mind.

    By no means do I actually think it 'cool' for anyone to burn in hell.
     
  5. Squire Robertsson

    Squire Robertsson Administrator
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    This thread is closed.
     
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