Will a Christian ever go to hell?

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by James_Newman, Sep 4, 2004.

  1. James_Newman

    James_Newman
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    Will a Christian ever go to hell? I believe in a free grace salvation, that if you believe on the finished work of Christ Jesus and his blood shed for the sins of the world, then your name is written into the book of life and you get to live for ever. But I have heard that Christians can go to hell. This is a serious issue that I should look into, because what does it mean for me if a Christian can go to hell? I should probably look into a couple of versions just to be safe, huh.

    Matthew 18:9
    KJV
    9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.
    NIV
    9And if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell.

    This doesnt sound good...

    Mark 9:43
    KJV
    43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
    NIV
    43If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out.

    They both seem to agree that a Christian should be wary of hell fire...

    Matthew 5:22
    KJV
    22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
    NIV
    22But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother[1] will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, 'Raca,[2] ' is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell.

    Yeah, I think a Christian may be able to go to hell. I am confused now. I thought Christians were saved by grace, that it was a free gift. Doesn't the bible teach this?

    Romans 6:23
    KJV
    23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
    NIV
    23For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in[1] Christ Jesus our Lord.

    John 6:40
    KJV
    40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
    NIV
    40For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.

    Ephesians 2:9
    KJV
    9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
    NIV
    9not by works, so that no one can boast.

    I don't understand how I could be told I was given a free gift just by believing, and then be warned that if I don't have good works, God wil cast me into hell... There must be something I'm missing...

    Rev 20 KJV
    12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
    13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
    14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
    15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

    AHA! The KJV shows that Hell is not the final resting place for the unsaved! Death and hell are cast into the lake of fire! So, I might be in danger of a 1000 yr stay in hell if I don't obey my Lord, but His promises stand true! What a glorious testimony to the 100% truth of the Bible. There are no contradictions in the word of God. I truly am saved by faith alone, and also rewarded for my works, good or bad, at the judgment seat of Christ. I better confirm this with my other bible.

    Rev 20 NIV
    12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.
    13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done.
    14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

    Wait a minute... this says hades, not hell... I was never warned of going to hades in my NIV... Isn't Hades a ROMAN god of the underworld anyway? What is he doing in my trusty NIV?

    Rev 20 NKJV
    12And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God,[3] and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.[4] 15And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

    Hmmm, it seems this ROMAN god has crept into my 'updated' New King James bible also.

    NASB
    Revelation 20
    12 And I saw the dead, the (1) great and the small, standing before the throne, and (2) books were opened; and another book was opened, which is (3) the book of life; and the dead (4) were judged from the things which were written in the books, (5) according to their deeds.
    13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and (6) death and Hades (7) gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them (8) according to their deeds.
    14 Then (9) death and Hades were thrown into (10) the lake of fire. This is the (11) second death, the lake of fire.
    15 And if anyone's name was not found written in (12) the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

    Amplified Bible
    Revelation 20
    12I [also] saw the dead, great and small; they stood before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is [the Book] of Life. And the dead were judged (sentenced) by what they had done [[1] their whole way of feeling and acting, their aims and endeavors] in accordance with what was recorded in the books.
    13And the sea delivered up the dead who were in it, death and Hades ([2] the state of death or disembodied existence) surrendered the dead in them, and all were tried and their cases determined by what they had done [according to their motives, aims, and works].
    14Then death and Hades ([3] the state of death or disembodied existence) were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
    15And if anyone's [name] was not found recorded in the Book of Life, he was hurled into the lake of fire.

    New Living Translation
    Revelation 20
    12I saw the dead, both great and small, standing before God's throne. And the books were opened, including the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to the things written in the books, according to what they had done. 13The sea gave up the dead in it, and death and the grave gave up the dead in them. They were all judged according to their deeds. 14And death and the grave were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death--the lake of fire. 15And anyone whose name was not found recorded in the Book of Life was thrown into the lake of fire.

    HCSB
    Revelation 20
    12 I also saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened.[1] Another book was opened, which is the book of life,[2] and the dead were judged according to their works[3] by what was written in the books.
    13 Then the sea gave up its dead, and Death and [4] Hades[5] gave up their dead; all[6] were judged according to their works. 14 Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire.[7] This is the second death, the lake of fire.[8] 15 And anyone not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

    ESV
    Revelation 20
    12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. 13And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. 14Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

    Revelation 20
    12I also saw all the dead people standing in front of that throne. Every one of them was there, no matter who they had once been. Several books were opened, and then the book of life [1] was opened. The dead were judged by what those books said they had done. 13The sea gave up the dead people who were in it, and death and its kingdom also gave up their dead. Then everyone was judged by what they had done. 14Afterwards, death and its kingdom were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death. [2] 15Anyone whose name wasn't written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

    Revelation 20

    12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne; and books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of the things which were written in the books, according to their works.
    13 And the sea gave up the dead that were in it; and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
    14 And death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death, even the lake of fire.
    15 And if any was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire.

    Someone doesn't want us to have assurance that we are saved by free grace. They want us to live in fear of losing our eternal salvation and being damned to an eternity in HELL. They want us to put our trust in our WORKS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS to ensure that we do not go to THE FIRES OF HELL FOR ALL ETERNITY. The bible plainly tells us that this will not save us.

    But hell, as I have shown easily with one small passage from the KJV, is not the final resting place of the wicked and lost sinners. Hell and the lake of fire are two separate holding places. Hell is temporary, used to reserve souls and angels unto judgment. A prison if you will. Everyone in hell will come out of hell at the end of the 1000 year kingdom, and the book of life will be searched for their name. Then death and hell are cast into the lake of fire, and whosoever is not written in the book of life is cast into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the eternal stop for Satan and all who are not written in the book of life, not hell. Who would want to muddy up that crystal clear distinction? I'll give you two guesses, and they're both right.

    NIV
    Matthew 16:18And I tell you that you are Peter,[3] and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades[4] will not overcome it.[5]

    KJV
    1 Peter 5:8
    Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

    There is an ecumenical movement afoot that would lead us back to Rome. We know that we are in the last days, and that there is going to be a one world religion headed by the Roman Catholic 'Church'. How in the world could Satan get bible believing Christians to join hands with the whore of Revelation 17? Well, we know from the Bible that Satan is subtle, and we know that he knows how to use scriptures to cause us to stumble. He just took a little bit of wisdom from the Bible and perverted it to his own uses:

    Matthew 5:25
    Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.

    If protestant Bibles teach the same doctrines that the Catholic Church teaches, then we must agree. Better to agree, than be cast into prison for standing for the word of God, especially when we don't really know what the word of God truly said anyway. Better to take the mark and worship the beast than be beheaded for the witness of Jesus and the WORD OF GOD...

    I reject the Romish doctrine of works salvation, and I reject the Romish 'versions' that promote it.

    [ September 06, 2004, 10:25 AM: Message edited by: Pastor_Bob ]
     
  2. Ed Edwards

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    hades - 1. Gr. Myth. a)the home of
    the dead beneath the earth
    b) the ruler of it
    2. Bible the state or resting plae of
    the dead; name used in some modern
    translations of the New Testament

    But, who said KJVOs can read stuff like
    dictionaries or believe it if they did?
    "Hades" is NOT the Roman ruler of
    the underworld but in come contexts
    (not this one) the "Greek" ruler of
    the underworld.

    IF i had time (and i need to see my
    shut-in Mother-in-law (MIL) i'd dispute
    both points you tryed to make in your
    lead-in post.

    Posters here in the past did NOT have
    a copy of the NIV nor ever look into one.
    We will chew you finely and spit you
    out if you do that also.

    [​IMG] Praise Iesus [​IMG]
     
  3. Charles Meadows

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    James,

    Are you saying that Christians who have not lived righteous lives can be sent to Hell for 1000 years but then will be released before the lake of fire?

    :confused: :confused:

    So basically you believe in purgatory! And you say you reject Romish doctrine?

    Dominus vobiscum my son! ;)
     
  4. USN2Pulpit

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    I think I have an understanding of the issue put forth, but I believe that the way the topic has been set up, it is not the originator's intention to gain understanding. (Even though the language of the post pretends to be searching for truth)

    BTW, I think I've seen this argument before. Now where did I read this...?
     
  5. Askjo

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    What is difference between hell and hades? I give you 2 examples of sentence:

    Someone said, "What HELL are you doing here?"

    or

    Someone said, "What HADES are you doing here?"

    Look at these sentence: which word is strong?
     
  6. robycop3

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    Apples & oranges, Askjo...Which is more accurate, hell, or hades when the GREEK reads,"hades"?
     
  7. Ransom

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    James Newman said:

    I reject the Romish doctrine of works salvation,

    But not, as evident by your post, the Romish doctrine of purgatory. [​IMG]
     
  8. James_Newman

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    Ransom, and Mr Meadows... can you show that it is purgatory rather than just calling it so? Purgatory is similar, but it is not the same thing. Just because the Catholics have perverted some (all?) biblical truth, doesn't mean we should throw out the baby with the bath water. Christians will be judged for their works. Christians will be rewarded for good works. Christians will answer for bad works. How does the Bible say we will answer for them? Purgatory is a continuation of the Roman process of salvation of works. Prayers and indulgences for the dead are offered to help move them along in the afterlife. That is not biblical.
     
  9. Keith M

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    Gehenna, or Hinnom, is a valley south of Jerusalem where the backslidden, idolatrous Jews at certain points in history sacrificed their children by fire to Molech and Baal. This valley later became the "garbage dump" of Jerusalem, and it is said that fires were kept constantly burning for the destruction of the filth thrown there. In most of its occurrences in the NT, Gehenna refers to the place of the lost.

    Hades is the Greek word used to denote the unseen place of the dead. All the dead go there. However, there is a separation in that the evil dead are in torment while the righteous dead are not (see Luke 16:19-31).

    Sheol is the Hebrew word for the place of the dead. As with the Greek Hades, all the dead go there. It is the abode of both the righteous and the unrighteous dead (Psalms 9:17; 16:10; 30:3; 31:17 are just a few references). Sheol is described as dark (Job 10:21-22), deep (Job 11:8 ) and barred (Job 17:16). The dead also go down to it (Numbers 16:30, 33; Ezekiel 31:15-17).
     
  10. Craigbythesea

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    This "theology" comes from the following work:

    Faust, J.D. The Rod: Will God Spare It?. Hayesville: Schoettle Publishing Co., Inc. 2002

    [ September 06, 2004, 09:50 AM: Message edited by: Pastor_Bob ]
     
  11. James_Newman

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    I'm sorry, Craig, that you believe eternal security is a perversion of the Gospel. There are some people who believe the Bible when it says we are saved by grace, and not of works. This is for us the essential teaching of the Gospel. Your idea that a Christian can lose his salvation is repugnant and stinks of Rome.

    [ September 06, 2004, 09:51 AM: Message edited by: Pastor_Bob ]
     
  12. Ed Edwards

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    You are letting current English
    usage to determine your doctrine :(
    You should let the Holy Bible determine your
    doctrine.
     
  13. Trotter

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    I clicked on this thread to see some "truth"...instead, I find inane babblings about Christians being thrown into the lake of fire, only to be redeemed after they have paid for their...sins, errors, mis-judgements? Hogwash!!!

    Jesus Christ atoned for each and every sin and shortcoming there upon the cross on Calvary. To believe otherwise is to call Him, and almost the entire New Testament, a liar! Give me a break!

    Salvation is by faith in...
    1. Who Jesus is...
    2. What Jesus did...
    3. Where Jesus is now...
    And nothing else!

    A Christian does not keep himself saved! God does that. Hello? Anyone there?

    Purgatory belongs to the RCC heretics, not on the BaptistBoard.

    In Christ,
    Trotter
     
  14. AVL1984

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    James Newman, why do you give only one definition of "Hades"? Intentional misrepresentation again? Is this really honoring and glorifying to the Lord? I don't think so.

    AVL1984
     
  15. Ransom

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    James Newman asked:

    Ransom, and Mr Meadows... can you show that it is purgatory rather than just calling it so?

    Specifically, the Roman doctrine of purgatory is that the faithful who die in a state of grace, who have committed no mortal sins but have venial sins for which penance has not been done, must be subjected to temporal purification before they are able to enter the presence of God.

    Purgatory, like the nonsense you are espousing, fails the truth test where the rubber meets the road. It doesn't matter if it's the same thing or not, because it commits the same fatal error. Both are a denial of the sufficiency of Christ's atonement for the forgiveness of sins. This is a false gospel and subject to condemnation:

    [ September 05, 2004, 08:51 AM: Message edited by: Pastor_Bob ]
     
  16. robycop3

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    JAMES NEWMAN: Your idea that a Christian can lose his salvation is repugnant

    Mr. Newman...Please open your KJV to Hebrews 6 & read.
     
  17. Craigbythesea

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    James,

    I did not write that eternal security if a perversion of the Gospel, but that Joey Faust's theology, otherwise known as Kingdom Exclusion Theology, is a perversion of the Gospel. And James, you know this to be the case but you deliberately misrepresented the facts.

    Rev. 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
     
  18. James_Newman

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    James,

    I did not write that eternal security if a perversion of the Gospel, but that Joey Faust's theology, otherwise known as Kingdom Exclusion Theology, is a perversion of the Gospel. And James, you know this to be the case but you deliberately misrepresented the facts.

    Rev. 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
    </font>[/QUOTE]Ok craig, I am I supposed to infer from this that a: you never lie, or b: you believe a Christian can never lose his salvation? You have already told me that you believe a Christian CAN lose his salvation. You seem to think that somehow your idea that you must continue to work in order to keep your free gift is not works salvation and that it somehow can be reconciled with such verses as
    Romans 6:23
    For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

    or

    Romans 5:15
    But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

    I on the other hand can hold both truths (the truth of free salvation and the truth of Christian responsibility to live holy) without having to do violence to the English by redefining the word 'believe' to mean 'believe and work'. The believer will be raised up on the last day.

    John 6:40
    And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

    This is a promise. It was not a conditional promise, other than the condition of believing. And it doesn't say keep believing, and it doesn't say believe and work to prove you really believe. The last day is guaranteed to any believer. Now any believer who wants to wait an extra 1000 years to taste eternal life is free to live it up in this life. I encourage you all to decide for yourselves whether a thousand years in hell is worth the pleasures of sin for a season??? I have decided it is not. That motivation of fear combined with the promise of rewards that I can't even imagine is enough fuel for faith for any Christian to continue serving the Lord. We do not need to be fearful of losing our eternal salvation as well, since some seem to think that free grace is nothing more than a license to sin. God forbid!

    The last day is NOT the 1000 year kingdom.
     
  19. James_Newman

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    </font>[/QUOTE]Ransom, I will let you and Craig debate the eternal security issue, if you claim to believe that the sufficiency of Christ's atonement is at stake here. If one of you wins, then we can talk about whether punishment for believers is scriptural. Most of these guys seem to think that all the warnings in the bible mean just that: Christ's atonement was not sufficient, they have to add their works to the mix in order to be saved.
     
  20. James_Newman

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    I put to you that the lake of fire is the sea of glass mingled with fire that is seen in Rev 4 and 15. Sea and Lake mean the same thing. The lake of fire is before the throne in heaven and is not the pit.

    As for a place being dumped anywhere, God said it, not me. Death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. How does a city come down out of heaven? This is still God were talking about.

    [ September 06, 2004, 10:20 AM: Message edited by: Pastor_Bob ]
     

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