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Will firing Cardinal Law solve the problem?

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by Nimrod, Dec 12, 2002.

  1. Netcurtains3

    Netcurtains3 Guest

    Joe,
    You are asking people from other denominations to investigate your church. What you should do is investigate - ask outsiders afterwards.

    I was on the side of the "victims" for ages. However I think I am begining to rebel against that first view. I have been a Catholic for over 40 years, I went to catholic schools, I have met literally thousands apon thousands of Catholics - I have yet to see any abuse what so ever. I'm beginning to think a large number of these "abused" people are dodgy geezers. Seriously!

    The simple solution is the UK Nolan report - The recommendation is "if anyone makes a complaint then it goes straight to the police without any messing around". The Nolan report has been fully accepted by the English and Welsh catholic church but it has had ONE POST NOLAN case where things are a bit cloudy. This ONE POST NOLAN case has made many people shout for the Cardinal of England to resign.

    I don't know how any one has the cheek to fly the the Israeli flag and then talk about Catholic Cover ups - Isreali tanks have been killing and starving Catholic palastinians. Catholics in Israel on the whole don't even have a vote.

    I certainly think the victims are odd.

    [ December 14, 2002, 05:46 AM: Message edited by: Netcurtains3 ]
     
  2. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick <img src=/532.jpg>Banned

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    You are the ones who claim we are no better than you on this issue and therefore, should keep our mouths shut. All I am saying is prove it. You are the ones who are trying to say that things like this happen in the Baptists Churches all the time. Prove it. But alas, you can't. Because it doesn't happen in a Church that is congregational because the people would never allow it.

    I was on the side of the "victims" for ages. However I think I am begining to rebel against that first view. I have been a Catholic for over 40 years, I went to catholic schools, I have met literally thousands apon thousands of Catholics - I have yet to see any abuse what so ever. I'm beginning to think a large number of these "abused" people are dodgy geezers. Seriously![/QUOTE]

    Somehow, seeing as you are a Catholic, this doesn't surprise me. It seems pretty typical of much of the arrogance in Catholic thought. Stupid victims. If they would just keep their mouths shut, we could sweep all this under the rug and go on living in our own fantasy world and pretend like nothing is wrong.

    I don't know how any one has the cheek to fly the the Israeli flag and then talk about Catholic Cover ups - Isreali tanks have been killing and starving Catholic palastinians. .[/QUOTE]

    This has nothing to do with the conversation. But it is very common of what I have always thought were the opinions of most European anti-semitic, terrorist UN loving Catholics. Thanks for confirming that.

    Catholics in Israel on the whole don't even have a vote.[/QUOTE]

    That is a comforting thought. I applaud Israel for that. [​IMG]
     
  3. Netcurtains3

    Netcurtains3 Guest

    Joe,
    You're the one who makes Yeshua out to be a liar.
    You accept that Baptists can commit the sin of bad sex crimes but you are refusing to accept that baptist leaders can commit the sin of cover up. I think it safe to assume that in any large group of people you will see most types of sin - including cover ups.
    Don't put your denomination up on a pedistal because someone will eventually knock it over.
     
  4. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick <img src=/532.jpg>Banned

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    Thank you for that not so enlightening post. Again, I say, show me the evidence of Baptist ministers commiting sexual crimes against children, the congregation finding out about it and then covering it up.(That is what we are talking about here. That is exactly what the leaders of the Catholic Church have done). Then, you might have a point. But you won't find any evidence to even suggest such, so you don't.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  5. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick <img src=/532.jpg>Banned

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    If you could find one example where a congregation covered up a sexual crime of one their Baptist Ministers, I would be first in line with you (I would hope) to protest this Church and call for complete justice. But see, that is the big difference between Baptists and Catholics on this issue. In a Baptist Church, the leaders are accountable to the people of the local Church. The Catholic leaders are accountable to a bunch of corrupt friends who are willing to allow this to happen. It is a little harder to ask a congregation to cover up a crime in which you sexually molested one of their children or one of their friend's children. You WILL go to jail in a Baptist Church.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  6. Netcurtains3

    Netcurtains3 Guest

  7. Georgia2002

    Georgia2002 New Member

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    I don't think anyone here will dispute that. I would be very interested in seeing a report where a Baptist minister committed a crime such as this, and after the church found out, the man wasn't fired, but instead, shuffled off to another Church to molest again. Please post a link that shows this. It was the cover up that got the Catholic Church in so much trouble.

    Joseph Botwinick
    </font>[/QUOTE]Does anyone else have any information to add on this issue dealing with Baptist Ministers who committed child molestation, were caught, and then had their crimes covered up and were moved to another church to commit the crime again? Obviously, the Clinton reference fail very short of even comparing to what happened in the Catholic Church.

    Joseph Botwinick[/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]Sorry, Joseph looks like we're all in the same boat. Lets all join in prayer for the ministry of Jesus Christ. We can't let a few wolves in sheep clothing do this to us who are in the ministry of our Lord. Mt 6:18 The gates of hell shall not previal against it.

    I did a google search and this is what I found.
    Only b/c you asked.

    Georgia

    http://www.llano.net/baptist/pbc204.htm

    Baptist And Protestant Shame
    We believe that immorality among Baptist and Protestant ministers is far too wide spread. Sin is sin wherever it is found, and it should never be covered up. The following, concerning immoral charismatic preachers, was taken from Calvary Contender

    We have read reports that 20% of Southern Baptist ministers have been guilty of having an affair while in the ministry. I would sincerely hope that this is not true.
    Among Independent and/or Fundamental Baptists there has been far too much coverup of sin. Why should other pastors cover up for adulterers, homosexuals, and child molesters in the ministry? We hear of some who have been caught in sin, and they simply are shuffled off to another part of the country, where they continue to carry on their sin in another Church. Such people should be cashiered out of the ministry, and if they are guilty of homosexual involvement with children they should be turned in to the proper legal authorities. The same goes for those that molest girls as well.
     
  8. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick <img src=/532.jpg>Banned

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    I disagree with 40% figure as I think your Church's doctrines and cult like leadership is not Christian.

    Show me the statistics where a Baptist Congregation covered up a sexual crime like the Catholic Church did.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  9. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick <img src=/532.jpg>Banned

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    What is the name of the Church which "Among Independent and/or Fundamental Baptists there has been far too much coverup of sin. Why should other pastors cover up for adulterers, homosexuals, and child molesters in the ministry? We hear of some who have been caught in sin, and they simply are shuffled off to another part of the country, where they continue to carry on their sin in another Church." You really need to understand something about Baptists before you go any further with this shaky, flemsy evidence. Baptists don't have Bishops and Cardinals who govern the Churches and move people around from Church to Church like you do. The congregation itself hires and fires its ministers and the ministers are responsible to the local Congregation. The charge doesn't even make any logical sense. But I will give you a chance to persuade me. Please name one Baptist Church which has covered up sexual crimes of their ministers and sent them to another church to commit these crimes again.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  10. Georgia2002

    Georgia2002 New Member

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    What is the name of the Church which "Among Independent and/or Fundamental Baptists there has been far too much coverup of sin. Why should other pastors cover up for adulterers, homosexuals, and child molesters in the ministry? We hear of some who have been caught in sin, and they simply are shuffled off to another part of the country, where they continue to carry on their sin in another Church." You really need to understand something about Baptists before you go any further with this shaky, flemsy evidence. Baptists don't have Bishops and Cardinals who govern the Churches and move people around from Church to Church like you do. The congregation itself hires and fires its ministers and the ministers are responsible to the local Congregation. The charge doesn't even make any logical sense. But I will give you a chance to persuade me. Please name one Baptist Church which has covered up sexual crimes of their ministers and sent them to another church to commit these crimes again.

    Joseph Botwinick
    </font>[/QUOTE]Joseph,
    Since I didn't write the article I would not know that answer. Why don't you write the pastor that wrote it, I'm sure he has that information. For now lets drop it since it seems you are getting very upset over this. For the sake of charity.

    Lord have mercy.
    Georgia

    address for reference
    Tabernacle Baptist Church
    E. L. Bynum, Pastor
    1911 34th Street
    Lubbock, Texas 79411
     
  11. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick <img src=/532.jpg>Banned

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    I am not upset in the least about debating the truth with you. I enjoy shining the light of truth on this situation. I think it is good for us to see the truth about whatCatholicism is really about: Absolute power, corruption, blaming other for their own shortcomings.

    But, if you really want to drop this, for the sake of charity, I will. But, in the future, if you cannot back up your claims, then don't make them.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  12. Netcurtains3

    Netcurtains3 Guest

    Hi,
    I would just like to add that it is an urban legend, a myth, that single men are raving mad poofters. If you ask a social worker you will find that most sex crimes are committed by married men.

    I am in favour of married clergy, I am in favour of women clergy.

    Against this, I can see that giving up sex for a life dedicated to Yeshua, is a high and noble ideal. I can also see that it is nice to keep a sense of male and female in society - we should not just think of ourselves as sexless drones - perhaps the Church needs female clerics to be like Mary while male clerics do the up-front priest stuff.

    Net.

    [ December 14, 2002, 04:58 PM: Message edited by: Netcurtains3 ]
     
  13. Georgia2002

    Georgia2002 New Member

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    Just one more thing. FYI, I didn't make this claim, it came from this article. Did you read it?
    You might direct your questions to Anne A Simpkinson also, from Belief.net
    She is the reported that did the story.

    http://www.belief.net/frameset.asp?pageLoc=/story/101/story_10199_1.html&b
    Soul Betrayal
    It's not just priests who abuse youngsters. Clergy of all faiths are guilty of sexual misconduct with children and adults. By Anne A. Simpkinson
     
  14. trying2understand

    trying2understand New Member

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    You are ignoring the fact that Baptist churches are independent. In our town such occurances happened with two different fundamentalist ministers.

    In both instances, the church dismissed the pastor who then simply left the state to start a new church somewhere else. Both men are beyond the reach of the law and I suppose their new congregation doesn't care, doesn't believe it, or forgave them. The result is the same.

    BTW, a lack of news reports is not proof of anything.

    [ December 16, 2002, 08:47 AM: Message edited by: trying2understand ]
     
  15. trying2understand

    trying2understand New Member

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    They are called nuns. [​IMG]

    [ December 16, 2002, 12:10 PM: Message edited by: trying2understand ]
     
  16. Nimrod

    Nimrod New Member

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    My mother, who is Roman Catholic told me, "anti-Catholic" means lies about the Catholic Church. I never once lied. Why is my stuff anti-Catholic?
     
  17. Netcurtains3

    Netcurtains3 Guest

    Nim,
    Its good that you are interested in prophecy. Too often this central-ish aspect of Christainity is swept under the carpet.
    I note you mention the town of Rome. Perhaps if I could suggest taking this interest in prophecy into the 21st Century. In a prayerful way you could possibly study "Elliot Waves" and Fractal Geometry. Christianity has left this whole area of prophecy to econominic gurus (yes people did sell airline stocks days before September 11th). These waves are a study in mass psychology. Did you know that Sheffield in England is built on seven hills (as is Jerusalem). Sheffield was the centre of the Industrial Revolution - 18th century poets and writers said it looked like Hell. A study in Mass psychology might have lead Clergymen to warn us of the dangers - prophecy. We all know of the Great Fire of London in 1666 and Wren's "New Rome" built on the ashes of the burnt bread - did Wren think it through to the squallor of Victorian East End Slums? In 1966 England was amazed to win the world cup (there was a hotly disputed goal) - How many clerics said "this is going to lead to mass English soccer hooliganism"?
    Elliot Waves - Fractal Geometry - A prophet should study - perhaps for years. Don't give up.

    Net.

    [ December 16, 2002, 02:51 PM: Message edited by: Netcurtains3 ]
     
  18. Nimrod

    Nimrod New Member

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    I disagree with your interpretation of Scripture.
    In Fact I disagree with you on what belongs in Scripture.
    I disagree with on how one gets to heaven.
    I believe you are unsaved, and therefore there is no light in you. Why should I ever listen to an unbeliever about prophecy in the Bible? That would be like saying that Muslims are part of Salvation CCC 841 (i think)
     
  19. Johnv

    Johnv New Member

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    Cool!! You've resorted to calling people who disagree with you as unbelievers. If you agree with the Matt 7:1 assertiaon that as you judge, so will you be judged, , I guess we know where that puts you.
     
  20. GraceSaves

    GraceSaves New Member

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    Joseph,

    I have yet to see a published lists of names of priests and victims that have been proved to be true (and not a baseless accusation).

    You haven't done your reaseach. If you have, you have not posted it here. Therefore, telling us we have to do research for you and show it, while you don't have to, shows how you have an undefendable position.

    God bless you on this cold evening,

    Grant
     
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