Will- Is there not a cause?

Amen, on this we AGREE. (Disclaimer: No intention is made or given to be snarky)

 

I'm here to learn more about this Calvinism thing, not answer questions about what I believe. Is Calvinism so indefensible that you have to deflect the questions and try and focus on other people's belief?

Again I ask:

So anything good a man does, that desire comes from God? Anything bad a man does, that desire comes from Adam?

 

Forget trying to win the debate for a moment. Forget trying to place rules on how the questions are asked. Humor me a moment, and lets pretend that a sixteen year old boy in your church is reading this thread and your posts. He comes into your office and says.

"Pastor Luke, I am so relieved, I have been in torment with my struggle over my s*xual preference. Then I read where you said how you desire calf livers and most people would choose the Krytal burger. You said we don't really have any free will because we have those desires placed in us, out of our controls. Thank you for making me feel better about my desires, and they really aren't my own, they are just my calf livers."

OK what do you say to this boy? Don't evade, or twist the answer in order to win an argument, explain in plain easy to understand English how you would answer. Make it clear to every young person that might be reading this thread.

 

If an unregenerate man can only do evil and act only according to his evil desires, then he is not acting "freely". Freedom requires a choice.

 

This little story shows the will of man is a slave to his desires, that cannot be controlled by himself. As in any controlling sin, we do not have the power to overcome it on our own. To say, "this is just how God made me", still makes the sin a sin. Those that see little boys as a s*xual preference, or a dog as a s*xual preference, may be something that most of us can not relate to. But it is still a sin. And their is still a controlling factor in those that do these things.

We don't just say...STOP IT!!!. That does not work. They are slaves to the sin. In most cases, they too wish they could stop having such things in their mind. They don't have the power to overcome it.

You may not have the same problem, but I'm sure you too have some type of sin you cannot overcome. Maybe you eat to much. Maybe you lift sports up as your God. If its sports, maybe you really wish you could stop watching so much sports, .....your wife hates it. You spend no time with your kids. But, you just can't stop turning on ESPN and watching 10 hours every night. Maybe its time spent on the internet you cannot control..... I mean the list goes on.

To overcome sins, we must have the power of God in us. We must ask God to replace our desire with his will for us.

Calvinist are often said to believe men are robots controlled by God. I do wish that was true. But as long as we have control of our will, it will be controlled my our love and desires. This should be the desire of all believers, to be controlled by the Spirit. Ths can only happen when we love God with ALL of our heart.


SO......I would tell the little boy, that such was SIN, going by the Bible. I would tell him that even if this is his GREATIST desire, it still must be seen as SIN. Not just because I say it, but because God says so.

Also, I would tell him I understand that desires cannot be overcome on our own. I would tell him that Christ came to save sinners from their sin. Believing he was a helpless sinner and in need for someone to save him from his sins, he should cry out to God for salvation, and place his trust in his Son as his only Hope.

The boy as all men should ask God to change his heart. To take away his desires and replace them with Gods will.

 

A simple yes or no will suffice:

So anything good a man does, that desire comes from God? Anything bad a man does, that desire comes from Adam?

 

Poor understanding of bondage of the will.

The choice is always before us. But is never considered a reall choice because of our bondage to our desires. You know the story of a lion that will not eat hay. The hay is there for him to eat and he has a mouth that can indeed it it, but his NATURE never sees hay as a choice.

 

Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows.

 

Great points above.

No matter how little or how much clarity we have in drilling down to the deepest root cause that sparked our faith, we need to reach a very humble point where our heart has child like faith

Mark 10:14 (New American Standard Bible)
But when Jesus saw this, He was indignant and said to them, "Permit the children to come to Me; do not hinder them; for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these.

 

I don't know that I would disagree with any of that. But you didn't say that we are, absolutely not completely free to make behavior choices, but rather bound to certain choices.

 

We have a choice but it's not a real choice.

Let a lion get hungry enough and he will eat anything.

 

Not really. A lion will die from starvation while sitting in hay. The hay would keep him alive, and he could eat it .....but his desire is to eat meat, so he will die.

 

I don't follow you. Please help me to see your point.

 

You've never owned animals have you? :laugh:

A dog or a goat will eat anything! Especially if it is starving.

And that is because it's in it's nature to survive!

You guys really need to pick a better analogy.