Will the Lake of Fire Ever Go Out?

Let me put aside any doubts you may have about me. I do believe the Scriptures. But you and I interpret them differently and reach different conclusions on what the Bible as a whole is teaching.

May God bless you.

 

DHK provides the quote for "TO BE absent from the Body IS TO BE present with the Lord"


Phil.1:23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:

2Cor.5: 8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.


Hmm - it never actually came out and made that equivocation that "TO BE absent from the Body IS TO BE present with the LORD".

So where did that quote come from if not from scritpure? It was used by both DHK and 3AngelsMom (who take opposite side on this subject).

The answer is that it is a very common misquote of scripture - one that is "NEEDED" by those who actually believe that By Definition "TO BE absent from the body IS TO BE present with the Lord".

3AngelsMom does not believe that - but it is fascinating that even she is quoting that phrase and assuming that it is accurately spelled out in scripture - simply because it is so commonly accepted and quoted that way.

One thing that BOTH groups agree on - is that FROM the perspective of the one who is facing death - there is NO long wait in the grave. Death is an instantaneous portal to the presence of God for BOTH the saved and the lost.

EVEN for those who accept the SLEEP terms used by Paul in 1Thess 4 - at the moment of death - the mind stops tracking time - so at the moment of being raised to life, the resurrection at Christ's return, the mind picks up the current of thought exactly where it left off, no time measured between the two events by the dead.

In Christ,

Bob

 

First, let me say that I think we have mistakenly thought that only in this age is there salvation. We have not considered what may happen in the ages to come in God's plan.

Second, I believe that the punishment of hell is corrective, as punishments on this earth are as well, and not punitive.

Third, the Bible teaches that death will be defeated by Christ. The lake of fire is called the second death. Since Jesus will win over death, how can death continue in the lake of fire for eternity?

 

You are being delusional here. Prove to me that this passage is talking of those who read commentaries.
DHK

 

This discussion has primarily been about 2Cor.5:8,
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

The clear teaching of this verse is that one is absent from the body he is present with the Lord. Phil. 1:23 teaches the same thing:
23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:

Paul, knowing that death is drawing near, expresses a desire, but yet a realistic desire. He is between a rock and a hard place one might say. He quite frankly tells the Phlippians that though he would like to be with them, among them, but if he dies he will be with Christ which is far better. To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.

Now, after being questioned about 2Cor.5:8 by you and Bob Ryan, I posted what other scholars taught on the same verse, so you could easily see that what I was giving you was not something way out in left field. I gave you Scripture and the proper interpretation of it.

Then, you attacked the character of those men, and quoted 2Thes2:7-14, a passage of Scripture which deals with the mystery of iniquity, the anti-christ in the end times, a passage that is totally irrelevant to 2Cor.5:8. You wanted me to explain the relevance of your passage of Scripture??
You claimed that this passage of Scripture was speaking of those people who used commentaries, but you refuse to show how that is so. You are throwing out Scripture, making statements about them, and not having the intestinal fortitude to back it up. If 2Thes.2 talks about people using commentaries then demonstrate how it does so, or don’t make such unwarranted statements. Back up what you say.

Now you say I “have run out of excuses and ways to dance around the verses” that you posed. I have explained to 2Cor.5:8. and told you the context of 2Thes.2. Whereas you fail to justify your eccentric interpretation of 2Thes.2. You simply say that’s the way it is, and that’s all. I refuse to discuss it. That passage means that those who use commentaries believe a lie and are damned. And you give no reason for your strange belief.
DHK

 

Just noticing some of the things you are saying 3AngelsMom and I get the feeling that you are implying that if others do not believe just as you do then they do not have the Holy Spirit and they are not saved. Am I correct?

Neal

 

3AngelsMom,
Thank you for your response. Let us consider this passage and see what it really means.

They do speak about people who love not the truth, but how that could include people that would read commentaries is beyond me. As I pointed out to you earlier, one of the commentaries that I quoted to you was John Wesley, the founder of the Methodist movement. a great man of God. His brother Charles wrote many of the hymns that I am sure that you sing today. Those hymns that you sing can be considered commentaries. What do you think “Hark the Herald Angels Sing” is, but a commentary on the birth of Christ? Just because you sing it, does not make it any less a commentary; it still speaks of the birth of Christ. How would you explain that?
Further still, every sermon preached in the book of Acts, Peter’s sermon on the day of Pentecost, the sermon recorded in Acts 10, and in Acts 19, are all unscriptural. So would all the messages that Paul preached on his three missionaries when he established approximately 100 local churches. Why? What is a commentary but a collection of sermons. If a commentary is unbiblical and wrong then so are the sermons that make up the commentary. If sermons are wrong, then all the instances of preaching in the Bible are wrong. Furthermore you better not listen to any sermons either. If your pastor publishes his sermons they become a commentary. Does that happen in your church. All you have to do is put his sermons together, whether they be on the net or in written form elsewhere. A sermon is a commentary. Comments on the Bible compose a sermon, thus the word commentary. You see how untenable your position becomes.

Here is what Paul said to Timothy in 2Tim.2:2
2 And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.
--Notice here Paul did not say to rely on the Holy Spirit alone. He explained to Timothy to take the things that he had taught to him, and teach them to other faithful men, who in turn would teach other faithful men. God uses teachers. God uses men. God uses men and their commentaries on the Word of God. Their commentaries (like the epistles that Paul wrote) are a result of their hard labor and diligent study in the Word of God. God uses teachers, not just the Holy Spirit. In fact He left the entire evangelization of this world in the hands of just eleven men (Mat.28:19,20) and told them to TEACH all men.

If your method is correct: “Just depend on the Holy Spirit,” Why did Paul have to teach Timothy? Why couldn’t the Holy Spirit teach him? Why was Timothy commanded to teach other faithful men? Why couldn’t they just rely on the Holy Spirit just to be taught? God ordained that there be teachers in the local church.

Eph.4:
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
DHK

 

Look at the context, 3AngelsMom. That is always a wise thing to do.

2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
--The context is, as it says in verse two, “the day of Christ is at hand,” which is explained also in verse one as “the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him.” In other words Paul is referring to the rapture, when all the believers will be gathered together or raptured when Christ comes for His own. When will the great even happen?

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

--Don’t be deceived he says. This day will not come until there is a great apostasy. That is what is meant by a “great falling away.” And a second sign: “that man of sin”, “the son of perdition” be revealed.” Now who is that? Those words can only refer to one person. The man of sin in the Bible is the anti-Christ. He is a specific person that will come to lead the entire world astray after the rapture (mentioned in verses 1 and 2 has occurred). When he comes what kind of things will he do?

He opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God, or that is worshiped, so that he as God sits in the Temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
Those are very specific and terrifying words. This man (the man of sin, the anti-christ) calls himself God, and will sit in the Temple of God (which isn’t built yet), and all the world will worship him as God. He will be a one-world leader, and all the world will worship him.

5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
--Paul reminds them that he had already explained these things to them. He explains that the mystery of iniquity is already working, in other words things are ripe for the coming of this man. Sin abounds. As soon as the rapture takes place the anti-christ is ready to show his face and declare himself as such. What is to prevent these things from taking place now? “He who now letts will let” “he who now restrains will restrain until he be taken out of the way.” The Holy Spirit is the great restraining influence in the world today. When the rapture occurs, the Holy Spirit, indwelling the hearts of all the believers, will be taken out of the way, and evil will have its way. The believers of this day, indwelt by the Holy Spirit, have a restraining influence on the wickedness of this world.

8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
--Then, after the rapture will have taken place, that Wicked (one), referring to the anti-christ, will be revealed, who after seven years of tribulation, at the Battle of Armeggedon, will be defeated.

9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
Even him, that is the anti-christ, who for seven years, with all of his power and lying wonders will have deceived the people of the world. However, the people of the world were easily deceived because they loved not the truth, that they might be saved.

11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

--It was for this reason (they loved not the truth) that God sent them a strong delusion that they should believe a lie. What was the lie? The lie was that the anti-christ was god. They actually believed it and followed him as god.

These verses have nothing to do with godly men who read commentaries and/or write them.

As you can see I don’t need other commentaries. I have been studying the Bible now for thirty years, and teaching it for 25. I have written some of my own commentaries. I posted the writings of other men for your benefit. If you will not believe “my commentary” on the subject, maybe you would believe someone else. The passage is perfectly clear to me. It means: if your absent from the body you are present with the Lord. It is very simple isn’t it.

Three times in the last chapter of the Book of Revelation does Jesus promise to come quickly. The promise means that His coming is imminent. He may come at any time. The believers of the first century, as we of the 21st century are to look for his coming with great expectation. That is the teaching of the Bible. There will always be false prophets like Charles Taze Russel, Mary Baker Eddy, Ellen G. White, and many others, who lead many astray. John said there were some false prophets in his day. This is nothing new. That is why we are to trust the Bible and use the Bible as our final authority. Notice I say the final authority. That doesn’t dispense with other teachers and teachers that have written books. We measure everything against God’s Word.

True enough, if you make sure that you have the Holy Spirit, that you are truly born again by God’s Holy Spirit, and not by baptism. If baptism has anything to do with your salvation I question if you have the Holy Spirit at all. Has Christ fully atoned for your sin. If you believe that Christ has not fully atoned for your sins, that he is still looking at the books, so to speak, then I would question your salvation. Christ paid the full penalty of our sins, fully atoned for our sins on the cross. He said it is finished. Do you believe that Christ has completely finished the work of salvation, and that there is nothing more for Christ to do, as far as one’s salvation is concerned?

I don’t have a problem with that verse; you do. And if you come to such a different meaning then maybe it is a different spirit that is teaching you. Make sure of your salvation.
DHK

[ January 28, 2003, 03:51 PM: Message edited by: DHK ]

 

DHK The Scripture teaches: "To be absent from the body IS TO BE present with the Lord."

I suppose there is a way to edit 2Cor 5 to "get it to say that" but I have not found where the text has it that way.

Instead of saying "TO BE absent from the body IS TO BE present with the Lord" - God's Word actually says --


2Cor.5: 8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, AND to be present with the Lord.

Instead of declaring an equivocation "TO BE absent... IS TO BE Present with the Lord" - the text in fact declares TWO distinct states "ABSENT from the Body - AND - Present with the Lord".

In 2Cor 5 THREE distinct states are identified from vs 1 through vs 8.

#1. The first state is that of being ALIVE in this mortal state - decaying due to sin and corruption.

#2. The second state is "Absent from the Body" - unclothed - with death having stripped us of our decaying physical body. Where "this tent is torn down" Vs 1.

#3. The third state is "Present with the Lor" in "an eternal body - not made with hands - Eternal in the heavens" vs 1.

Paul state in vs 4 that the intermediate state "unclothed" is "not desired".

Paul has ALREADY written to the Corinthians of the ETERNAL body that is received at the resurrection (see 1Cor 15 the entire chapter).

Some has "presumed" that with the addition of a 2nd eternal body in 2Cor 5 that humans will one day have TWO eternal bodies (the one of 1Cor 15
received at the resurrection according to the chapter, and the one of 2Cor 5 which they wish to separate from the eternal body of 1Cor 15).

But the fact is - they are one and the same "Eternal body" "made without hands, eternal in the heavens".

So instead of insisting that there IS no "unclothed state" - Paul instead longs for the 3rd state - the clothed with the eternal body - of 1Cor 15 that was mentioned in vs 1 of 2Cor 5.

In Christ,

Bob

[ January 28, 2003, 05:14 PM: Message edited by: BobRyan ]