Will the SBC split over the doctrines of sovereign grace?

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by reformedbeliever, Sep 27, 2006.

  1. reformedbeliever

    reformedbeliever
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    I follow a lot of the blogs and debates on the doctrines of sovereign grace. Sadly, it seems that instead of unity and creative tension concerning our views of the sovereignty of God, we are quickly becoming a people moving toward division. Why can't we see that we are to be as one in Christ as He is with the Father? If it is not the sovereignty of God, it will be the charismatic movement or some other doctrine that we will fight over. I'm in study of the History and Theology of Baptist this semester, and I know this is not something new. The History of Baptist has been one of much fighting.
    My question is this. Do you think the doctrines of sovereign grace will become such a dividing issue that there may be a split within our denomination? (SBC) Or better yet, should we part company here? As most of you know, I'm a 5 pointer. I also know that what we believe is closer than most people understand to what the main stream SBCer believes. For instance, we do *not* say that there is such thing as an unelect person who truly wants to come to Christ, but can not. I don't want this to turn to a debate.... but it probably will. I just really want opinions as to whether we can exist with this dual theology that we have historically held. The reason is that more and more people are becoming educated as to what are the two doctrines. Will we split?
     
  2. webdog

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    Don't Presbyterians hold to calvinism? How come calvinists don't join Presbyterian churches?
     
  3. Humblesmith

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    I don't think there will be a denominational split. Maybe a church or three, but not the denomination. The average church member does not squabble over it as much as the people in the online blogs, where a vocal few skew the average.
     
  4. Pastor Larry

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    Some do. But Baptist Calvinists (or what have historically been called "Particular Baptists") cannot join a Presbyterian church because we believe we should follow the Bible completely. :D ... OK, that was a little jab at our Presbyterian friends who can't defend themselves.

    But seriously, we are Baptists. How could we join a Presbyterian church? And why should we?
     
  5. J.D.

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    I think the split is inevitable, but it's ignorant statements like this that will accelerate it.
     
  6. Bro Tony

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    I don't think a split has to happen JD. I am SBC, and I believe if the debate can be understood as an inhouse difference in the same vein as eschatology, gifts of the Spirit, communion stance (open/closed) we will be alright. If it becomes the primary doctrine in people's lives then yes it will cause a division.

    Bro Tony
     
  7. El_Guero

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    Yes, ignorance is bliss.

    Particular baptists and general baptists were historically split over this issue.

    It is only the resurgence of particular beliefs within baptistic circles that has accelerated the discussion (debate, argument, fight - choose your word).

    It would be nice if we could just agree to disagree, but some folks take this issue too personal. IMHO.
     
  8. Grasshopper

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    Why don't the anti-calvinist just join the Methodists?
     
  9. Tom Bryant

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    Baptists have always had a group of people who were Calvinists. Why should we split about that when we have so much else to split over? :laugh:

    We have 10% of baptist pastors who are Calvinists. I doubt there would be that many churches because there are some 5 pointers who pastor 3.5 point churches.

    We have lots of issues in the SBC. I don't think this is one we'll split over.
     
  10. drfuss

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    OP:
    "I follow a lot of the blogs and debates on the doctrines of sovereign grace. Sadly, it seems that instead of unity and creative tension concerning our views of the sovereignty of God, we are quickly becoming a people moving toward division. Why can't we see that we are to be as one in Christ as He is with the Father? If it is not the sovereignty of God, it will be the charismatic movement or some other doctrine that we will fight over. I'm in study of the History and Theology of Baptist this semester, and I know this is not something new. The History of Baptist has been one of much fighting."

    Since all of the SBC believe in the sovereignty of God and in God' grace, I see no reason why the SBC would split over these two issues. However, the SBC may split over calvinism. The fact that calvinist persistently imply that non-calvinist do not believe in the sovereigty of God and in God's grace, may be factor in encouraging a split in the SBC.
     
  11. gb93433

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    Some of that fighting you study about is very much against Satan but a large part is against each other. Too many individual voices rather than genuine leadership.

    Anytime you have a dog and pony show which involves chasing after images then you have a false religion. The quickest way to get rid of that is to require of every leader in the SBC and every main leader in the local church to show their leadership by discipling people. Then you will show what true leadership looks like and those who are not leaders will not have a voice and be silenced. I have never seen the person who was rocking the boat as the same person who was rowing it. People who make disciples have little time for politics and following after an image. Other things are much more important.
     
  12. 2BHizown

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    There can be no unity when there is such a drastic difference in doctrine! People of like mind and doctrine can be cohesive and work out their differences but calvinists vs arminians? Hmmm I dont see that ever taking place as there is so much hostility apparent from all non calvinists! If there is no split it would be due to apathy, a truly great problem in the church today! Most people in the pew neither know or care as long as their ears are tickled and they leave church on Sunday knowing they've done the 'right' thing!
     
  13. mcdirector

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    SBC split!?! I don't think it will happen. I don't think that enough Baptists understand Calvanism or election or predestination or (OK, I'll go for broke) exactly what the Bible says on many items for there to be a split.

    AND as for any of us convert to Presbytarians or Methodists, there is that little issue of baptism . . .
     
    #13 mcdirector, Sep 27, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 27, 2006
  14. Bro Tony

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    2BHizown,

    I don't believe the hostility is one-sided. I have seen on this very board those who call non-calvinist heretics. I have seen them falsely accuse those who are neither calvinist or arminian of being such also. That is the kind of language on a secondary doctrine that causes schisms.

    Bro Tony
     
  15. PeterM

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    SBC should be "big" enough for people of all views in this debate. Diversity is a good thing and debate is healthy, but division is not.
     
  16. drfuss

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    Quote:
    Originally Posted by 2BHizown
    There can be no unity when there is such a drastic difference in doctrine! People of like mind and doctrine can be cohesive and work out their differences but calvinists vs arminians? Hmmm I dont see that ever taking place as there is so much hostility apparent from all non calvinists! If there is no split it would be due to apathy, a truly great problem in the church today! Most people in the pew neither know or care as long as their ears are tickled and they leave church on Sunday knowing they've done the 'right' thing!


    Hostility?? Calvinists persistance in claiming that all non-calvinists are arminians does not help the situation either. The OP implies that non-calvinists do not believe in the sovereighnty of God or in God's grace. Misrepresenting what others believe leads to a lack of credibility and mistrust.
     
  17. El_Guero

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    "I don't think that enough Baptists understand Calvanism"

    Was this a Freudian slip?

    :saint:

     
  18. rsr

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    To the OP:

    Nope, it won't be that. It may be other things, but not that.
     
  19. 2BHizown

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    If those believed in the sovereignty of God in all things there would be no problem! You see, calvinists believe God is sovereign in salvation, from beginning to end! Can that be said by non-calvinist?
    Can two walk together except they be agreed? With such diverse differences it would appear that the SBC continues on in two different views of soteriology, dont you think?
     
  20. StefanM

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    It seems to me that a split wil occur eventually, though I'm not sure when.

    When you have seminaries like Southern that are Calvinist through and through but are funded by a convention that is not, tension occurs. It seems that as Calvinism grows in the SBC, tensions will grow also.

    That's just my two cents.
     

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