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Will the SBC split over the doctrines of sovereign grace?

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by reformedbeliever, Sep 27, 2006.

  1. Allan

    Allan Active Member

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    No split on this issue except maybe the extremists who think that if you don't believe like me, you don't beleive the truth of God.

    This is sad as Calvinism and Non are both VIEWS of the immutable truths of scriptures. They are veiws of the mechanics of these truths we hold so dear.

    IF there ever was a split it would be those of the extreme persuasion to leave due to not be able to conform everyone else the their veiws of certain truths.
     
  2. Bro Tony

    Bro Tony New Member

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    I believe in the sovereignty of God in salvation from beginning to end and I am not a calvinist. What calvinists cant seem to understand is that many of us see no conflict with the belief that a sovereign God made a decision that it was His sovereign will to create man with the ability to genuinely respond to Him. And that our ability to respond does not negate in any way the sovereignty of God. I know you wont agree, but that does not change that many of us believe this is possible and that God is completely sovereign in all things. My decision for or against His call does not make Him any less sovereign. This is the balance of the Scriptures work out in our view of those that seem to be in conflict between the call of God and the responsibility of man to respond.

    Bro Tony

    BTW---With an attitude like yours there will be a split. Let's pray there are those on both side that are willing to bestow grace on this secondary doctrine toward each other. After all it seems strange that with brothers in Christ we would refuse to offer grace when that is what we all believe God has offered to us.
     
    #22 Bro Tony, Sep 27, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 27, 2006
  3. Southern

    Southern New Member

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    Webdog,

    I am assuming by your statement that you are unfamiliar with SBC history.

    Would you not acknowledge that the Founders of the SBC were Calvinists? And why should those who agree with the Founders on Calvinism leave (as you say)?
     
    #23 Southern, Sep 27, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 27, 2006
  4. Allan

    Allan Active Member

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    Many were Calvinists, Yes.

    Because they did not found the Baptists. They worked hand in hand with other baptists who were not Calvinistic in Soterology.
     
  5. whatever

    whatever New Member

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    Dude,

    As long as most pastors are non-Calvinists, most of the misunderstanding will come from the non-Calvinist side. It does not bother me at all, personally, to be in a Convention with non-Calvinists; but I sure wish they would stop questioning my desire to evangelize, for just one example.
     
  6. Allan

    Allan Active Member

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    Just the same as I wish the Calvinists would stop questioning my personal belief that God is absolutly soveriegn. :BangHead:
     
  7. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick <img src=/532.jpg>Banned

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    This is not true when that diversity includes open theism. Not all diversity is good.

    Personally, I pray there is a split. I hope we surgically remove the cancer of open theism from our convention and replace it with the truth of the Bible. As was said earlier, the non-Calvinists can become Methodists and we will get back to our Baptist roots, the Biblical doctrines of grace found in Calvinism.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
    #27 Joseph_Botwinick, Sep 28, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 28, 2006
  8. Tom Bryant

    Tom Bryant Well-Known Member

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    Joseph,
    I appreciate you and much of what you say, but you deliberately choose to misrepresent what non-5 pointers believe. In no way do I believe in an open theism in any way shape or manner.

    In the same way that Bobby Welch and other lie about 5 pointers being soft on evangelism, so is your belief that I am an open theist. Open theism is heresy. And when you consistently call us who disagree with you heretics, you are purposefully and willfully misrepresenting us.
     
  9. 2BHizown

    2BHizown New Member

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    I am so sorry you see my firm stand for truth as 'an attitude like yours'! I am not critical of what you believe but am only taking a stand for truth as I see it in scripture.
    If in fact you do believe that God is sovereign by His electing His own, regenerating their heart, drawing them to Himself by His irresistable grace, not by any works of righteousness that they have done but by His own great mercy, and that He then preserves them to the end, then I welcome you to the doctrines of grace, the T U L I P, calvinism and all the persecution that goes along with believing the whole truth in Christ!
    Can two walk together except they be agreed? Shall we then stretch our 'tolerance' of the beliefs of others to encompass and accept all within our denominational boundaries as 'fellow believers'?
     
  10. skypair

    skypair Active Member

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    JD,

    I don't think this will split us so long as SBC Churches still give an invitation to receive Christ in their services and in evangelism. See, this alone is a practicing denial of theorical Calvinism.

    Of course, there may be a division at the rapture of those who "did" something about their beliefs and those who "didn't," don't you think? In particular, I see only part of Sardis (the Reform/Calvinist churches) raptured because she "had a name that liveth but art dead." See, they believe IN Christ but all works are "dead" if you don't do the first "work," repent toward Christ.

    skypair
     
  11. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    He deliberately misrepresents to cause a stir. I think he enjoys the angry exchanges more than the pleasant ones. That being the case, I would have no problem with the arrogant, pompous angry calvinists breaking off to start their own arrogant, pompous angry branch of baptists. I'm sick of being called an open theist and heretic by the so called "doctrines of grace" crowd.:BangHead:
     
  12. 2BHizown

    2BHizown New Member

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    That is such a sad reflection on christianity for a poster to respond in such a hostile manner! No cause at all to say such unkind and critical words! Shame! Actually I have never ever seen or heard an 'angry pompous arrogant' calvinist as most I've ever seen are truly humble servants of God, being ever thankful to Him for the grace He has shown to them!
     
  13. PastorSBC1303

    PastorSBC1303 Active Member

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    I am Calvinistic in my theology, and I must say the whole "Arminians are open theists" thought is just plain ridiculous. We can disagree on things without resorting to that.
     
  14. SBCPreacher

    SBCPreacher Active Member
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    I am not necessarily Calvinistic in my Theology, and I agree!
     
  15. Tom Bryant

    Tom Bryant Well-Known Member

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    But calling someone a heretic is not unkind or critical? :confused: :confused:

    I agree with you, most of the Calvinists that I have met are humble. But open theism is an assault on the character of God and to be accused of it is an also an assault on my salvation and what I believe.

    The problem with most of our discussions is that we believe there are only 2 camps: Calvinist or Arminian. But that's not true. I am not an arminian. I am probably a 4 point Calvinist or better I believe what I think the Bible teaches. As do you. We just understand some issues differently.

    But in the broad spectrum of what we as Bible believing Baptists, we agree on 99%. I usually don't enter in on these kind of discussions because they usually descend into the level of name calling. But when I get called a heretic, I felt the need to respond.
     
  16. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    Angry...yes, at constantly being referred to as a heretic and open theist. Hostile...I don't think so. I really do have no problem with angry pompous arrogant calvinists breaking off of the SBC. If you like this kind of crowd, all the power to you.
     
  17. J.D.

    J.D. Active Member
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    Webdog, the night I told my pastor that I had become convinced of the Calvinist system, rather than engaging me in reasoned debate, he said it was "of the devil" and that I should repent. He also told me that I was not allowed to speak in church. Then he brought in a string of visiting preachers to "straiten me out" by saying such nonsensable things as "my 4 year old daughter knows more about God than any Calvinist".

    So yes, since that happened, maybe I have been angry, pompous, and arrogant.

    I say let it split!
     
  18. Bro Tony

    Bro Tony New Member

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    Its clearly a blantant misrepresentation that borders on slander that those who don't hold to TULIP are open theist. I believe Tom spoke very well in his post. 2BHizown, I did not mean to put you in a category, what I meant was that those who have no room for a different perspective of the way our sovereign God works among His people then their own will bring about the split. Again, the arrogant slamming of the other side is not reserved for the non-calvinist. The point about brothers staying together if the don't agree comes I guess to the place where we each decide to draw a line. I personally feel pity for preachers like JD's former pastor and his statement. I may not agree with all five points of calvinism but would never tell a brother in Christ he is of the devil. I also pity attitudes like Joseph's that indicate anyone who does not go full bore to agree with him as to how God works His grace among us is a heretic.

    I guess the OP reveals the reality of the fact that in some peoples mind we are already split in the Christian community over this issue, and it may bring about the split in the SBC. BTW---I am not a Methodist, that is an ignorant statement, I believe in the priesthood of the believer and I will not have anyone require full adherance to their theological view in order to be considered a Baptist.

    Bro Tony
     
    #38 Bro Tony, Sep 28, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 28, 2006
  19. reformedbeliever

    reformedbeliever New Member

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    I do believe we are going to see very Godly people such as Director of Missions persecuted and loose their jobs over the doctrines of sovereign grace. It seems since calvinists are the minority, the non calvinist do not want a Director of Missions who is calvinist. That is a poor commentary. Baptist history shows how calvinist and arminian came together to form the Baptist Union... which became the Baptist Mission movement. We are moving backward instead of forward. Just wait and see. It will happen. That is when I think the battle lines will have to be drawn. I don't see how God is going to allow such persecution for solid biblical doctrine.... without such persecution accomplishing His purposes. Anyone wonder what purposes that may be? Where is the church that is supposed to be in unity? What happened to Jesus' prayer that we would be one as He and His Father are one?
     
  20. StefanM

    StefanM Well-Known Member
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    Most of this "cooperation" is an illusion.

    IMO..

    What generally happens is whenever Calvinists are in the majority, the non-Calvinists are run off.

    When non-Calvinists are in the majority, the Calvinists are run off.
     
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