Willful Ignorance?

gb - Thank you for trying to clear that up but I'm not quite sure what you mean by culture? Are you saying that the language structure of Chinese is closer to Hebrew or are you saying that the Chinese culture was somehow influenced by the Hebrews similar to how a lot of our culture is based on the Greeks?

All I was trying to say is learning a language to the point where you can truly understand it, much less understand the subtleties is a difficult task which many people can't overcome even with years of study and with close contact with native speakers. I imagine that this task is multiplied when the language is over 1500 years out of date and there are no current speakers. I haven't tried it so I'm not sure (maybe I'll try Sanskrit someday when my kids give me a free hour).

On the second point, about learning old languages, I'd appreciate responses on the difficulties of learning these, not the fact that it's only been dead for 500 years.

 

Thank you out there on the west coast! I used to live there too...and I hated it, haha! We lived in San Diego, Lomita & Victorville.

I could not have lived the life I have, had it not been for that faithful ol'Book. I truly believe I am who I am because of it. I do believe in it as being the very words of my Lord and Saviour, else, how could I know Him?

It's the same Book my greats used & theirs too. Whatever was before is what those back then used-all from the same line. There were no 'onlies' fighting. It was just always one Book in my family.

Yes, I do seek after the Lord with all my heart and soul and knowing I cannot serve two masters, I choose to put God first above all things. My mister comes next, then my children. I die daily, sometimes to things I love dearly.

I truly appreciate your post, because I do know it is He who allows me to be so bold, even in my ignorance.

 

The Chinese can understand Hebrew much better than we can. But we can understand Greek much better than they can. Greek culture is closer to our culture and the Hebrew culture is closer to the Chinese. </font>[/QUOTE]gb you are exactly right. I have pretty much given up on Biblical Hebrew. Ouuuuuch! I have an excellent book: Biblical Hebrew--A Text and Workbook by Bonnie Pedrotti Kittel, Vicki Hoffer and Rebecca Abts Wright. It is great, but HARD!

Michelle,
I probably didn't make myself very plain. I did not mean to say that I understood Greek better than the English of the KJV. And this is where we may differ, but what I was trying to relay was that as English speaking people, it is natural for us (even us non-KJVos) to compare translations with the KJV. It has become a standard of sorts simply because there is no doubt that it is the Word of God.

However, in my humble opinion, I take it that the Greek manuscripts are closest to the original manuscripts. I have many different variants of Greek compilations including the TR (as defined in the 1800's) and of course Nestle's and Westcott-Hort and others. More out of hobby or (trying to learn) I will translate small portions (a verse for instance) to see if it matches with the Greek.

Sometimes when reading the ESV, I see a verse that just doesn't "sound" like a verse I have read before. I will read the KJV and there seems to be a variation. So, then I pull out my books (or computer program, depending on the version) and look it up and try to translate it. Upon translating it in at least the TR and the Nestle's or Westcott-Hort, I will then compare what I have determined it says with both the ESV AND the KJV. Surprisingly, even though the two may sound somewhat different, I find out they say the same thing. Often, I find out that I was taking a more modern approach to the wording of the KJV, when in reality, I misunderstood some of the older words.

This is where I have come to believe that God has preserved His wonderful Word and Message in more than one place. You may disagree and that is entirely your perogative. That is why we are here to discuss these issues.

To answer your question about Greek, no I cannot understand it even close to the KJV, but I use it as a final authority when doing my comparisons, and I do admit that I tend to gravitate towards the TR, but also find that the differences are so minute that I have personally found no doctrinal changes.

In reading Greek, I have to take a sentence and write it out and then hit the refence books. It is similar to reading a newspaper when you are learning how to read. I would take the daily newspaper and pick out words that I knew what they were and underline them. As I learned more and more I could underline more words until eventually I was actually reading it.

The same thing is happening for me in Greek, but I am still at the early stages of recognizing individual words. The problem with Greek is that it uses a lot of "word phrases" (for lack of a more scholarly term) that when put together in a certain fashion change the meaning. Without knowing these "Word phrases" it is easy to make errors when translating. Plus, as with all foreign languages, the grammar is just all messed up. It is with great difficulty that I can translate and get the grammar correct, but I can see what it says and compare it with what I read in English.

I have an excellent book on Greek "word phrases" that lists phrases by tense and meaning. It has helped my understanding of Greek a lot. (don't have the book here so I can't remember the name.)

Anyway, that is really what I meant and hopefully this provides you with a better view of how I actually look at translations and the underlying Greek (or Hebrew) text.

 

Michelle,

Ask someone of a different nationality what language he/she thinks in! That's an interesting one!

As far as old languages, well...

Latin is (I think) the easiest. It is structured and has grammatical forms which are similar to English. The tenses line up easily.

With Greek the tenses have more of an ASPECTUAL quality than a time quality - that is the tenses define more of whether an action is completed or ongoing as opposed to whether it is past or future. There are more idioms than Latin and there is more dialectci variability. The biblical Greek was a language in a state of change - similar to yet getting less and less like the more complex Athenian (Attic) classical dialect. In addition we must contend with the fact that the NT writers probably were raised with Aramaic and some Hebrew so they wrote Greek as one who may have thought in Aramaic. This DOES make it tough to pick up all the nuances without ALOT of time spent. And you're very right - most people probably cannot do that.

That leads us to Hebrew and Aramaic. These are semitic languages and are very similar to modern day Arabic in terms of root words and conjugations. Hebrew verbs come in only 2 tenses, perfect and imperfect. There are multiple stems in which we can inflect these tenses: Qal is active, Niphal passive, Piel Intensive action etc. One of the more difficult things about Hebrew for us is that there is a whole different mindset and culture in western and central asia. Patterns of parent/child interaction, wife/husband interaction, stranger to stranger interaction would be quite foreign to us. We do miss alot by simply translating it word for word. A Bedouin man gets to say when he has reached the age of respect, or the age of wisdom - he basically gets to decide when he turns 80! That's not like our way of thinking - but that respect is due him in the eyes of those under him. So you can see how it gets tricky with Hebrew. I'm pretty comfortable with all of them now excpet the darn Aramaic - there's so few good books written about it. Anyway good luck with sanskrit - it'll help you with Greek too!!

 

Peace and love to you all in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,

Phillip,

Thanks for clearing that up - often I hear people in the debate claiming to be experts in ancient Greek and I have trouble relating to that know the difficulty with idioms or "word groups."

It's refreshing to hear your candor and I sincerely hope that your scholarly activities help you to better understand God's word.

I personally feel that understanding God's word is more of a matter of faith than secular scholarship but that is just my humble opinion.

Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

The key to a culture is through language.

When I was in Finland the word for computer meant “thinking machine.” But here an early computer was not a PC as we know it today. It dealt with numbers.

In any given culture words take on a particular meaning in how they are used. For example the words killed, murdered, and had an accident often end up with person being killed. But we use those words in a different way depending on what lies behind them.

In answering your last question. Yes it is harder to learn a language that is gone. But the way this is done is to examine documents around that time. If one were to understand the word for baptize in the NT it is helpful to read extrabiblical documents before and after the time of the NT to better help understand this word as it was used in secular society.

To understand a word that is no longer in usage they learn that language by getting a sense of its usage by the way it is used in as many documents as they can examine. But there are some men who are extremely gifted that can examine documents and come up with a translation even though the language is not spoken or used at all. W.F. Albright was one of those men. My understanding was that someone found a library of tablets and it was in a language that nobody had ever seen or knew. But he was able to translate them. Sometime when you get a chance just read a biography about him. What God did to prepare him in incredible. He was injured so bad that he could not participate in physical activities. So he read and studied. God injured him so that he could use him. W.F. Albright was an incredible student. He studied long and hard. what a challenge he is to those of us who want to learn.

 

Peace and love to you all in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour!


Charles,

Thank you for your response, and I very much appreciate all you had to share. It is interesting to see how many these days are studying Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic. To all that have the motivation, time and devotion to such studies, I commend them for their zeal.

I was only joking about the sanskrit. I really don't have the time, nor the desire to learn those languages. I have barely enouph time for my Bible studies. Maybe if I spent less time in here, I could study more of God's words of truth that he so wonderfully provided for us all, so that I am focused upon Him and his will for me in my life. I do learn alot in here. That is for sure, and even though many of us in here disagree, I do enjoy speaking with fellow christians.

Anyways, thanks again for your reply.

love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

Just remember, Michelle, that the PC is like any other "invention" thad God has allowed us to make-it can be a powerful instrument of good or evil. Just like a tv, we can turn it off or "change channels" if we don't like what's on the "current" one.

Keep using your PC for GOOD, unless you receive a clear calling to get off the Net. There are a LOT more people who can see what you have to say on the net than there would be a tv audience for you, since the web is WORLDWIDE.

I enjoy seeing what EVERYONE here has to say, but I don't have time to read every post in every forum.

I will continue to use the several BVs God has allowed me to have, as well as reading some I know are bogus, in order to "know my enemy" better, & thus be more prepared to resist him.

 

robycop3~so you think "some" are bogus, eh? I mean, if "some" are to you, & "all" are to me, am I then free to say that?

I use my one & only Bible God has allowed me to have, and have stayed away from all those "others"...because I DO consider them the enemy...is it safe to state this without fear of being reprimanded?

You said it, so may I also say it as I see it?

 

Granny, You have hit on a paradox. This is one reason I rejected any offers to buy this board from a previous owner. THe current owner now has that responsibility....haha. NOT ME. yuk yuk

You do have an interesting point to mull over.

In defense of the boards rules, I have to say that, "no, you may NOT call all others the enemy or call them corrupt if they are mainstream "accepted" versions." These might include the NIV, NASB, ESV, Holman, KJV, NKJV and other translations generally accepted by many Baptists to be authoritative translations.

The owner of this board has a very difficult job. It is not easy knowing where the draw lines in the sand. He not only has to allow differences of his opinion to be shared, but he has to limit those who are considered as "heretical". I do not envy his job.

I think the board has done well in allowing both sides of this argument.

I think what you will find is that there are definitely translations that we all disagree with. Specifically, as an example: the Watchtower translation.

Possibly the New NIV will fit into this category--it depends on if scholars think it is truly an accurate translation correcting gender because it is not the language of today, or if the translation actually changes the "thoughts" to make it "politically correct".

If a book is known to be a poor translation, written for the purpose of changing doctrine, then I think you have a right to call it names because in that case it would not be the true Word-Of-God; but that is not the opinion of the mainstream translations I mentioned above (along with others.).
Good try though.

 

The Latin VulgateOnlyists considered all other versions the enemy too. They were wrong and so are you. If you don't want to read any other version, then don't. However, calling all non-KJV English Bibles the enemy is going too far.

 

Well, actually~I don't really think of "them" as the "enemy", except in the sense that anything against God is His enemy, which in turn is mine, because I do hate the things He hates...

I just don't think of "them" at all. I have no problem believing that what I've used all my life(& those before me), is truly the only words of God, but I do not understand why everyone else has a problem with me believing that.

You say I am wrong, I say I am not. God says I am not. How does one pick'n'choose WHICH one is the enemy IF calling ALL non-Bibles the enemy is wrong? How is it going "too far" in calling "all", but yet it's okay to say "some"?

 

I don't really know anyone on this board, but I can tell you that elsewhere I have never criticized anyone for using the KJV. In fact, I've rarely see any Christian go out of his way to attack it. I'm not saying it never happens, only that it's not commonplace in the "real" world (as opposed to the surreal, combative universe of internet message boards). I have, however, seen people confront friends of mine over their use of a translation other than the KJV, often in harsh, belittling language. The Golden Rule, it seems to me, applies here. If you don't want someone to ridicule your choice of Bible version, then don't ridicule theirs. It's amazing how well this works.

 

First of all, I think you are pressing the limits here on both the BBB rules AND your opinion of what is against God. Now, I for one, know you are a great Christian and mean well and vote that we make an exception for this, but let me see if I can explain something here.

How can you call a Bible that defines the diety of Christ, his death, ressurection and all of the other things MV's do and call them "against" God. Just because it is not "your Bible", does not necessarily mean it is not "My Bible" nor does it mean that God dislikes "My Bible".

"My Bible" is simply another translation just like "your Bible" is a translation.

I predict that 100 years from now there will be groups calling the "NKJV THEIR Bible" and if you read another translation you are wrong because you are not reading "a" KJV. This is no different than what has happened every time there has been a revision of the KJV since 1611.

Now, if you want to take me behind the wood-shed and straighten me out, that's okay too, but I am still going to read "my ESV" it is "My Bible".

 

The New World Translation (NWT) is purposefully mistranslated to support JW's heretical doctrines. The NASB, NKJV, ESV, NIV, and others like them are not - they are good conservative Christians efforts to put the word of God into modern English. If you chooose not to use the good MV's, then you don't have to and nobody will fault you for it. However, when you lump them all together with the bad ones and call them the enemy and say they are against God when indeed they are not, you are wrong and have gone too far.

 

See Phillip, it's like this~robycop3 called some of them "bogus", did he not? Yes he did. So, to me, that means he knows something...

Of all those you read, do you agree with all of them? I doubt it, but why? So how do y'all pick'n'choose which is hot & which is not. How do you know the one you "prefer" is all that. If you just use the esp only, then aren't you considered an "onlyist"? Oop~I meant esv, sorry. How did you come to that conclusion that this was the one for you? It's always been just God & my Bible. It was there & there was no other "choices", ever!

And imho, I do not consider the "new"kjv a KJBible at all, but a clone, more deceptive than even the others. Don't you think satan, that ol'devil, knows exactly what he has done & is doing? Good vs Evil. Always has been & will be till the end.

Oh go soak yo'head boy, all this talk 'bout 100yrs from now...do you really think there's that much time left? Jesus is coming soon! Don't you believe that? I do, praise God, and tonite could be it! May God be glorified in our lives.

 

Granny, I sees ur point and I will know what ur sayin' buts this ole "ignoramous poster" (that's what I call myself now---you didn't have anything to do with it--although you may believe it) gots ta go ta church. I'm one of those -- ever' time da church do' is open. I's thar'.

I'll be back online after church and I'll write cha a good come-back and then you can take me out the the wood-shed again. How's that?

May the Lord bless you Granny, see ya later!

 

Hence, willful ignorance.

 

Hey Phillip~don't go away mad, just go away! haha-ever hear that one before? Yup, on the churchhouse doors being opened...they be calling me too. God commands us to not forsake the assembling of ourselves together, amen? We'd betta stay in church in these last days, because as we see the day approaching, we'll need to be stronger than ever...things is getting rougher.

Sorry this ol'igno is a po'substitute for the others, but I've had fun. Now about that wood shed... ~Cya later, 'gator!

[ April 07, 2004, 06:39 PM: Message edited by: GrannyGumbo ]

 

Matthew 10:16 (HCSB):

Look, I'm sending you out like sheep among wolves.
Therefore be as shrewd as serpents and harmless as doves.

Please note the complete absence of
"ignorant as doves". So come out of the
willful ignorance cult.