wine again

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by Ps104_33, Jun 18, 2003.

  1. Ps104_33

    Ps104_33
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    My wife and I have been reading through the book of proverbs in our devotions and as a study guide have been using one of Warren Wiersbe's Be Attitude books "Be Skillful" which is on the book of Proverbs. While reading proverbs one morn we came across this verse:

    Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright. prov 23:31

    What exactly is the author referring to here? The verse seems to be warning us about a certain kind of wine. I am not a teetotaller and will have a glass of wine with dinner on occasion when my wife and I go out so I am not trying to trap anyone here but just would like to know what some of you think of this verse. Could it be referring to the chemical reaction that takes place as grape juice ferments?
     
  2. BrianT

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    Context. The whole passage is simply about not abusing wine.
     
  3. Ps104_33

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    Your answer really doesnt explain the verse but thanks .
     
  4. BrianT

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    I think the verse is about strong desire for the wine, the "looking" at the wine and almost lusting after it's color, it's effects, etc. The desire to seek wine for the purpose of getting drunk.
     
  5. Scarlett O.

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    [​IMG] That's it exactly.

    Peace-

    YSIC
    Scarlett O. [​IMG]
    <><
     
  6. Ben W

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    It certainley is neccesary in this case to read the folowing verses.

    I drink Beer occasionally, Yet it is a warning for all those who look towards drunkenness for answers. Sure it feels good at the time, but Consequences?
     
  7. Psalm145 3

    Psalm145 3
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    The Bible teaches total abstinence from alcoholic beverages.

    Pastors must abstain from alcohol:
    1 Timothy 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant ,sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach.
    The word "vigilant" is translated from the Greek word "nephaleos" (nay-fal'-ee-os) Strong's # 3524, it's derived from the Greek word "nepho" (nay'-fo)Strong's #3525, it means to abstain from wine (keep sober).

    1 Timothy 3:11 "sober" - same word, "nephaleos" #3524.

    Aged men are commanded to be sober:
    Titus 2:2 That the aged men be sober, grave, temperate, sound in faith, in charity, in patience.

    God the Holy Spirit used the same word here, "nephaleos" Strong's #3524 -to abstain from wine (keep sober).

    Every person in the Thessalonian church is commanded to abstain from alcohol:
    1 Thessalonians 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
    Strong's #3525 -to abstain from wine.

    All believers, bar none, are commanded to abstain from alcoholic beverages:
    1 Thessalonians 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

    2 Timothy 4:5 But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.
    "watch" - Strong's #3525 - "nepho"- to abstain from wine.

    1 Peter 4:7 But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.
    "watch - Strong's #3525 - "nepho"- to abstain from wine.

    1 Peter 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour.
    "sober" - Strong's #3525 - "nepho"- to abstain from wine.
     
  8. Baptist Believer

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    Tell that to Jesus. Jesus drank (alcoholic) wine and it was certainly not sinful. He said it Himself:

    Matthew 11:19 "The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber...'"

    Jesus enjoyed food and they falsely called Him a glutton (one who eats to excess). Jesus enjoyed wine and they falsely called Him a drunkard (one who drinks to excess).

    The Bible teaches believers that we should not be intoxicated. If we drink, we should do it carefully - in moderation.

    Please do not confuse your opinions with the teaching of the word of God.

    [ June 20, 2003, 11:16 AM: Message edited by: Baptist Believer ]
     
  9. BrianT

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    Not that we've never discussed wine on the Baptist Board before ;) but neither "vigilant", "temperate" nor even "sober" mean "abstain". I can have a glass of wine with dinner once in a while and still be sober. Thayer's lexicon says the word means "abstaining from wine, either entirely or at least from its immoderate use [depending on context]". It is entirely about abuse, not use. The kingdom of God is not meat and drink.
     
  10. Ben W

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    i find it interesting that people aare keen to show that drinking Alcohol is prophibited by the Bible when Jesus drank alcoholic wine himself. He proved it by A, the water into Alcoholic wine at the wedding. The guest commented that the host brings out the poorer quality once the guests have had a few and its harder to tell the difference. This can only happen in Alcoholic Wine.

    Secondly Jesus stated that you cannot put new wine into an old wineskin. This was well known in the physical senxe because new wine Ferments and splits the old wine skin which can only stretch through one fermentation process, not two.

    Interestingly I had a discussion with a Seventh Day Advetist recently who was a Vegetarian, and like the Alcohol thing, I showed him that Jesus Ate Fish and Lamb in the Bible. His response was that Jesus would be aware that it is unhealthy now and would not do that. Nothing like making up the rules as you go along. :rolleyes:

    The Bible is clear about drunkeness, Being drunk and drinking Alcohol in moderation as Jesus did are two different things.

    Another point is that it is proven that Alcoholic wine was used in Jesus day by Archeology, and Jewish tradition. Wine must be Kosher, and it has been fermented the same way for thousands of years, go ask a Rabbi.
     
  11. Major B

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    I totally abstain as a "Romans 14" and "1 Cor 8" personal policy for several reasons.

    1. I discovered in my younger and unsaved days that I can't tolerate the stuff. Two glasses of sippin', and I be slippin'.

    2. If a lost person or believer with severe problems with the stuff sees me or another elder believer sip even a glass of wine, it will cause them to stumble.

    3. Given the great devastation that alcohol causes in families, it is not something I want to be identified with.

    4. Because so many believers adhere strongly to abstaining, it causes needless controversy between believers.

    The soul of a lost person, the sanctification of a new believer, the honor of the church, and peace between believers--four good reasons to abstain.
     
  12. RaptureReady

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    I'll have what he's having. Amen brother!
     
  13. Ben W

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    Yet for all of the Alcoholics that would read the bible over the next 2000 years, Jesus Christ did not abstain.
     
  14. legalsec2504

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    [​IMG] My thoughts exactly Major B, only I could'nt put it so good. My 18 year old son is an alcoholic - seeing the devastation that it has brought to him, the turmoil and sadness that it has brought to our home - I can only imagine the greater tragedy of alcohol in so many other families.

    I have been a teetotaler my whole life. So has my husband. I don't drink for the main reason that I do not want to cause another to stumble.

    Jill
     
  15. mxwelch

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    Wine in Jesus' day wasn't fermented. It was simply grape juice. Proverbs 23 says

    [29] Who hath woe? who hath sorrow? who hath contentions? who hath babbling? who hath wounds without cause? who hath redness of eyes?
    [30] They that tarry long at the wine; they that go to seek mixed wine.
    [31] Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright.
    [32] At the last it biteth like a serpent, and stingeth like an adder.

    Notice the last verse? Biteth like a serpent, stingeth like an adder.
    Not many people can belly up to the bar and take a shot of whiskey or gin or whatever and not have it burn going down because of the achohol.
     
  16. Baptist Believer

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    The words of Jesus:

    Matthew 11:19 "The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber...'"

    Jesus enjoyed food and they falsely called Him a glutton (one who eats to excess). Jesus enjoyed wine and they falsely called Him a drunkard (one who drinks to excess).

    His words make no sense if the wine of his day is not alcoholic. If you drink grape juice to excess, you simply get too many calories in your system. Drunkeness is caused by the alcoholic content.

    Furthermore, common sense and the historical record are against your position.
     
  17. BrianT

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    Then is the Bible in error for saying "wine" instead of "grape juice"? Why not simply believe the Bible? Why change the meaning of simple words just because you don't like the implications? Don't we condemn others for doing this very thing, to suit their own purposes?

    Although with a name like "Welch", I can understand your vested interest in grape juice. ;)
     
  18. RomOne16

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    How can one "be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess" if it isn't alcoholic wine one is partaking in?
     
  19. PJ

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    I'm with him ...
    PJ
     
  20. Glory Bound

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    I see a major difficulty of alcohol use is determining the definition of the term "excess", or "drunk". When is that point reached?

    According to the American Medical Association, some people experience impairment (as far as driving skills are concernded) with the first drink. A lot more experience impairment much sooner than the .08 blood alcohol limit currently in use in most states.

    So when you tell someone it's okay to drink, but don't get drunk - what do you say when they ask you what drunk is?

    Just my thoughts . . .
     

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