Wine Bibbing and Gluttony

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by Rhetorician, Nov 5, 2005.

  1. Rhetorician

    Rhetorician
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    Hey Gang,

    Here is a hot topic:

    Why is it we are so hard down on drinking; when we NEVER NEVER NEVER hear a sermon against glutton?

    I will tell you why we never hear a sermon on gluttony: We have denominations full of FAT PREACHERS! We keep building pulpits bigger and bigger to hide them rotund (sp?) preachers. It is my understanding that "discipline" was the root word for "Disciple!"

    The preachers are so concerned with drinking (the speck in the other guys eye) rather than the gluttony (the beam in their own eye). And many of us preachers are digging our own graves with a knife, fork, and spoon.

    The Scriptures seem to teach against drunkeness. And many times in the NT these two, drunkeness and gluttony, are coupled together.

    Why is it that "taking a little wine for the stomach's sake" is considered taboo and even "un-Christian" by certain leaders in the Fundamental and IBC circles?

    I need some help with this one please?

    Food for thought.

    sdg!

    rd
     
  2. USN2Pulpit

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    If by help you mean agreement - you got it here.
     
  3. gb93433

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    Interesting that you would bring up the subject. A friend of mine who was a youth pastor in the SBC was given the prescription of wine for a short while by a doctor for an ailment he had at the time.

    Some of that nonsense you write about comes from congregations and pastors who do not know their Bible and are terribly afraid.

    My parents were grape farmers for several years. We laughed at such nonsense. In fact one time all of us kids stood on a wooden box, one at a time in the barn and tried to imitate a fat shout, stomp, and spit preacher. We were not Christians at the time.

    The majority of times it was the city kids who got drunk not the kids whose parents grew grapes and had wine in the refigerator. A bottle of wine was seldom drank by us or my parents. Two bottles would last at least one year. Most of the time my das pulled it out when relatives came over.

    The first time I heard a preacher talk about wine I knew immediately he did not have a clue about what he was talking about. He had just preached someone else's sermon from many years earlier. I had approached him about what he had preached. I told him my parents were grape growers and I began to give him some facts. He never preached the same again. That kind of ignorant preaching destroys credibility. Anyone who has read a little in the gospels knows Jesus drank wine.

    As soon as I left the pastorate and went back into business my insurance went to about 1/2. That ought to tell us something. I asked the insurance agent, "why?" He said a lot of preachers are in poor health and have a lot of stress related diseases.
     
  4. bapmom

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    we've been hearing more about gluttony lately.

    This subject was brought up on our Reformers Unanimous meeting the other day. "Food issues" can be a huge problem area for people, and we have tended to ignore them.
    Our RU chapter is going to do more towards addressing these sorts of things, including bulimia and anorexia.

    When it was brought up I couldn't believe that I hadn't thought of it myself! We work in the Kid's program and gluttony is definitely a problem that kids can get into. Here Id been thinking of us as only preventing future problems, when I had one staring me in the face that our kids very well could be dealing with right now.

    We've already begun working on it.
     
  5. Brother Ian

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    Gluttony, I believe has got to be the least preached topic in the church today.

    It could be that some preachers don't preach on it because they are fat, but it may also be that there are more pressing things to preach about.
     
  6. Rhetorician

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    Brother Ian,

    What is more pressing that personal "discipleship?" Especially personal "discipleship" among the leaders of the local church; especially, especially among us who claim to have, hold, believe, and walk in "the truth of the Christ's Gospel!"

    sdg!

    rd
     
  7. Brother Ian

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    I don't disagree with you at all. I am not justifying the lack of preaching on this subject, but perhaps shedding some light on the subject.

    When you preach the whole counsel of God's Word, the subject will come up. It is up to us, as preachers to preach it.
     
  8. Rhetorician

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    Bro. Ian,

    Amen!!!

    sdg!

    rd
     
  9. insuranceman

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    It is interesting that some of you think your definition of gluttony is such a horrid sin. I find the word "glutton" in the Bible only twice, once in Deut.31:20 and once in Prov.23:21. Maybe that is why it is not preached on more often. The Hebrew is the word zalal which means worthless. The context of both verses is dealing with rebelliouness and drunkeness and not with overeating.
     
  10. bapmom

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    insuranceman,

    I should think then that the subject would really be about self-control.....

    Rebelliousness is lack of self-control towards authority (essentially)

    Drunkenness is lack of self-control towards alcohol

    and Gluttony is lack of self-control towards food

    It all needs to be dealt with
     
  11. insuranceman

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    Bapmom

    Both rebelliousness and drunkeness are condemned numerous times in the Bible not so with gluttony. The only time the word is mentioned in the NT is when the religious crowd was accusing Jesus of being a glutton. While the lack of self control is a sin ,in that, we are commanded to be temperate in all things which does include eating.

    From the postings in this thread most believe only overweight people can be guilty of gluttony. I once observed a friend eat over a dozen biscuits with jelly and then eat a full meal. Is he a glutton even though he is of normal weight and build? And since being overweight seems to be the measure of gluttony, if you are one pound overweight are you then a glutton?
     
  12. bapmom

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    insuranceman,

    I understand what you are saying. This is why MY post had to do with people who have problems in the "food area." Bulimia is overeating and purging, anorexia is UNDEReating.....also not the right kind of self-control.

    My only point is that we tend to try to stay away from this one because our feelings get so wrapped up in this issue.

    I don't think our judgement of this should be based on the person's outward appearance.
     
  13. insuranceman

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    Amen!!!!!!!!!!!
     
  14. John of Japan

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    Well maybe, just maybe, it is because the word "glutton" only appears twice in the Bible (Deut. 21:21 & Prov. 23:20--I have not checked synonyms, but I dare someone to check), and "gluttony" never appears, but the phrase "strong drink" appears 20 times, the words "drunken" or "drunkenness" appear 40 times, etc.

    You say, "And many times in the NT these two, drunkeness and gluttony, are coupled together." Where, pray tell? Name me one time these two are coupled together in the NT!! As for me, I'll put the emphasis where the Bible puts it, on the danger of alcohol and drunkenness.

    And maybe, just maybe, drunkenness destroys the lives of all around the alcoholic, but gluttony, while a sin (though emphasized very little in the Bible), only destroys the physical health of the glutton.

    I have known some gluttons: two of the best missionaries I know were very overweight, but guess what--they won many souls to Christ and they discipled many believers, but they never beat their families, they never got arrested, they didn't destroy their livers and die young leaving a young family behind. Gluttony a beam in the eye while drunkenness is just a splinter? You say, "The Scriptures seem to teach against drunkeness." You have to be nuts.

    Don't you dare tell me gluttony and drunkenness are equal sins. My grandfather on my father's side was an alcoholic, and my two uncles (2 out of 3 sons) were alcoholics. God in His mercy saved my father as a little boy, but his father used to get drunk and come home and beat him.

    Grandpa died of alcohol-caused liver disease when Dad was a little boy, leaving a widow and three orphan boys. But then Dad's older brothers followed Grandpa's example. They used to get drunk and come home and beat my Dad. God in his mercy saved one uncle from a drunkard's grave, but the other died when I was a little boy from--that's right--alcohol-caused liver disease--leaving behind a widow and a family.

    My family still has unresolved issues and problems dating back to the havoc Grandpa's alcoholism caused in my father's home. And I know that if I were to drink, I might become an alcoholic, and worse, my son might think it was okay and then he, himself become an alcoholic.

    Go ahead and have your "little wine for the stomach's sake." That's exactly what an alcoholic told me he was doing when, as a high school student, I witnessed to him on the shores of Lake Michigan. As for me, I'll put the emphasis where God puts it in His Word--on the sin of drunkenness.
     
  15. Petrel

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    What about the gluttons who die young of heart attacks or strokes?
     
  16. John of Japan

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    What about the gluttons who die young of heart attacks or strokes? </font>[/QUOTE]Even if I grant you this--personally I believe stress is a much greater cause of heart attacks or strokes--overeating has never caused a glutton to beat and otherwise abuse his family. Drunkenness and gluttony are both sins--but no way on God's green earth are they equal.

    Do I sound angry? You better believe I am. This whole thread trivializes the huge problem of alcoholism. I'm truly ashamed it has been brought up by people who ought to know better.

    I have an alcoholic in my church (95% of Japanese drink, and they drink to get drunk) who abuses his family. Oh and by the way, he had an affair with a bar girl. (But you meet the nicest people in bars, right?) A whole year of counseling brought him to Christ, and things are much better, but he still has trouble.

    Another lady we are trying to win to Christ loves her alcohol more than God. She goes on weekends to hot springs resorts with her friends just to get drunk. She told us once, "I got drunk twice, threw up all over the place." My reply? "That's supposed to be fun?" Her alcohol is keeping her from Christ.

    I'm going to bed now before I get angrier. (It's 11:00 here in Japan.) Try me again and we'll compare verses condemning "strong drink" with verses condemning gluttony. I dare you to do a search on your favorite Bible software.
     
  17. bapmom

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    Im sorry if I sounded like I was trivializing drunkenness. I certainly had no intention of doing that.

    I agree with you, John of Japan.

    Its just that this thread hit me because it came up right after this idea had come up in Reformers Unanimous. Our emphasis there continues to be drinking and drug abuse and such, with the adults.
    But for me in the Kid's Program, we don't yet see that. But for teen girls (which we have several of) this food issue can be a big deal....and they don't even realize it.
     
  18. gb93433

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    Your point in another posting proves that the apple does not fall from the tree. Most of the time the kids follow in the footsteps of the parents.

    Context? So you quote part of a verse and then slam Paul's words to Timothy? You know that verse is not condoning drunkenness or drinking too much. I have no doubt it is not condoning drinking. Many medicines have alcohol in them. So stop the prooftexting to try and make your point.

    Are you denying scripture by your commentary? It is not the medicinal use that is bad. It is the abuse of anything. A person can die drinking too much water. So would you advocate not baptizing people by immersion too? Kids sniff glue and all kinds of solvents. If a person wants to get high they can use so many things. Morgues are filled with loads of bodies for many reasons.

    Of course alcohol is a huge problem as are so many other things. It is not the proper use but the abuse that is the problem. Drunkenness is a symptom of an even greater problem. More pharmaceuticals are sold in the US than anywhere else in the world. Kids are not born drunk or consuming drugs. It is not the proper use of food which is a problem but the abuse. I think a lot of parents try to take the easy road and the kids see that.

    I grew up around grapes every day. Not one of my family has an alcohol problem. I had been around wine and grapes most of my childhood. Not one us has ever come close to even being drunk. It was in our home all the time. But we seldom ever drank it. I doubt our family alone even drank one bottle a year. Most of it was consumed when relatives came. As a little kid I was curious about how it tasted. So my dad gave me some and I could not understand how anyone could possibly like it. In fact all of us do not like it that well at all. Now that we do not have the grape farm none of us buy wine. I can remember as a kid getting some comments about how some of the city folks could not understand why we didn’t drink wine much and really didn’t like it. There were a few times when some of my city friends came over and would ask to drink some. I never gave them one sip.

    A few years ago when my daughter asked about how it tasted I told her what I thought. I also told her if she would like to taste it I would get her some. That quickly destroyed her mystery about it. Too often we tell people to stay away from something and give them no or ridiculous reasons. If we tell a kid to stay away from wine because they will get drunk and Christians do not drink and then the kid reads about Jesus drinking wine what will the child think? In his mind your words are worthless because he has been told all along to be like Jesus. So he ends up confused about why Christians proof text. He does not fully understand how to interpret scripture correctly and draw principles from it.

    My wife works in a hospital and she has told me the numbers of diseases that are the result of being overweight. It is a staggering number. Far greater than I once thought.

    Personally I think the US should require people to be physically fit. Some companies are refusing to insure people and firing them because they are overweight. Being overweight increases the number of sick days, increases health risks, decreases the ability to work and increases the chance of a work related injury. It is impossible to be drunk and exercise. The US should also have severe penalties for being drunk and driving. I have always said that if the first time was stiff enough the person would not come back for a second.

    Most sin problems would be solved if the church would get busy being obedient and personally make disciples as Jesus commanded. Yet week after week preachers stand up to pulpits and preach their words while they are disobedient because they are not personally making disciples. It should be verified to see if the potential pastor has made any disciples before he is even considered to fill a pulpit.
     
  19. gb93433

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    Strong drink has its place. It is for the dying. But today the doctors give things such as morphine, etc. Wine is not always condemned. Its abuse is always condemned.

    Show me one place where gluttony has any use. Its use is always condemned in scripture.

    I can easily condemn what scripture does.
     
  20. insuranceman

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    John of Japan
    I never said gluttony and drunkeness appear together in the NT. But check out your OT references both words do appear in context with each other. The Hebrew word translated glutton does not have the same meaning as today's def. for the word. Otherwise I agree whole heartedly with your previous post.
     

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