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Wine or Grape Juice in the Communion Cup

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Zenas, Jun 9, 2011.

  1. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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    The context I believe says new wine.
    One point if you have a reformed acoholic in the congregation, what would the sip of acohol do to them? Would they be able to partake and it not make them want to go back to acohol?
    There are also folks like me who have high liver enzymes mine due to fatty liver. Mine is so bad that my Doctor has me on a stricked no over the counter medication without her consent. Yes one drop of acohol might just do that much harm, and yet some of you say it must be acohol, don't you think again that if you use grape juice you have the vine but won't harm someone with the acohol content.
    Of course this is least of the debate we should have considering how many churches have the Lord's breakfast now in stead of the Lord's supper.
     
    #21 revmwc, Jun 9, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 9, 2011
  2. Zenas

    Zenas Active Member

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    I don't know of any context that suggests new wine. Could you perhaps put a little meat on that bone?
    I don't think the quantity of alcohol in the Lord's Supper would have any effect on an alcoholic, any more that eating a small chip off a cookie would upset a diabetic. But if it did, it would be up to the alcoholic to abstain from taking the cup. Just like it would be up to someone allergic to gluten to abstain from the bread.
     
  3. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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    So now you want to exclude someone because of your preference. They don't get to partake because you want your wine and they can just do without, pretty bad attitude.

    If you use unleavened bread as it was doesn't that keep the gluton out of it?
     
  4. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    1. Time is not a factor. The Jews knew how to preserve grape juice. It was a beverage they delighted in and was good for them because of a lack of good drinking water.

    2. In the KJV, "wine" did not always mean fermented. It often referred to unfermented. Only context could determine the meaning. Our English word "cider" is the same way today. Cider at a place like Starbucks is hot beverage like apple juice, but in Germany it is an alcoholic beverage.
    Both in the Greek (oinos) and in the Hebrew (yayin), these words also have both meanings: fermented or unfermented wine. Again, only the context can determine the meaning.

    3. The Jews were not looking for a science lesson but rather symbolism, as it is today. In the Bible leaven is symbolic of sin, corruption, and false doctrine. "Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees."

    They were to eat the Passover without leaven.
    We ought to be eating the bread that represents the purity of the body of Christ, which faced no corruption, with unleavened bread.

    We ought to be drinking the unfermented wine (grape juice) that represents the pure blood of the Lord Jesus Christ, untainted with sin.

    How do we see the effects of leaven?
    It is not in a test tube. It is obvious.

    Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright. (Proverbs 23:31)
    Leaven is the corrupting influence of the grapes. It is needed to make fermented wine. It is the yeast. The Scripture tells us that when it starts turning into wine not even to look on it, much less drink it. It is representative of sin and corruption, and certainly wouldn't be used to symbolize the precious blood of the Lord Jesus Christ. Remember, this is what the Jews would view leaven or yeast in the wine as. I know that you will object scientifically that there is leaven, but that is not the point. The point is what did the Jews see as representing leaven in the process of making fermented wine? Look at the context. It is right here.
     
  5. LaymansTermsPlease

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    I'll have to go back and re-read. I was sure the gospels recorded Starbucks coffee, frappies, and huge muffins for that last meal. :tongue3:


    Seriously...for the OP. I believe it should be actual wine as Christ and the disciples drank. However, I see no problem providing grape juice only for those in the congregation who have health/addiction issues, and young believers, while providing wine for most.

    But by that same token, on the other thread, I believe immersion should be practiced whenever possible, but for health concerns, etc, I don't see a problem with affusion (pouring).

    So, consistently, stick with the ordinances as God gave them to us and recorded, make exceptions only for serious issues, not whims.

    I've never attended a church that did the Lord's Supper "properly" in my mind. All grape juice, all my life. Sad fallout of legalism, likely stemming from over-influence of the temperance movement.
     
  6. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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  7. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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    see my post on #26 and tell me in the original where it says they were drinking wine or even firminted product from the grape vine.
     
  8. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    This is a presupposition you made without evidence.

    It is the same as coming here and saying "It is too bad that churches don't go back to the Biblical way of baptizing by sprinkling."
     
  9. righteousdude2

    righteousdude2 Well-Known Member
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    Grape Juice or Wine are Fine!

    Just don't serve or drink the Koolaide :laugh:

    Actually, I've never been in a Communion service that served wine. In fact, I didn't think any church but the Catholics used the real stuff?

    Pastor Paul :type:
     
  10. preacher4truth

    preacher4truth Active Member

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    Not quite.

    I know all sins were forgiven at the cross. You don't.

    You need to reread your Bible. Your salvation is not dependent upon you, your behavior, nothing. And this is exactly what you are depending upon.

    Since this is your case, Jesus isn't the author and finisher of your faith. You are.

    Take scissors to that.
     
    #30 preacher4truth, Jun 10, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 10, 2011
  11. Tater77

    Tater77 New Member

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    Show me.....

    I was under the impression that John Welch was the first to do this about a century and a half ago. He did it for the sole reason of not using wine at the Lords Supper.
     
  12. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    If your going to insist on wine....I'm OK with that but I want a bigger cup.:thumbs:
     
  13. Arbo

    Arbo Active Member
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    Pre-Welch, alcohol was the preserving agent in wine.
     
  14. preacher4truth

    preacher4truth Active Member

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    BTW Zenas 1 John 1:9 is not a slavation verse, nor proof text of being born again, again.

    Not even close.

    So you're saying you must be born-again, and again, and again?

    Wrong.

    Saved once. It's IF saved always saved.

    I hope you don't teach others this misapplication and misinterpretation. The context is fellowship, written to already saved believers, and is not instruction on how to be "saved again."

    There is no one in Scripture saved twice.

    You're a Baptist? I have a difficult time believing you are Baptist. Free will, maybe.

    You need some instruction on hermeneutics.
     
  15. Zenas

    Zenas Active Member

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    So you substitute grape juice for wine because the congregation might have the occasional alcoholic? That's like sprinkling everybody because your congregation might have the occasional candidate who is too infirm to be submerged.
    It's not the leaven that contains the gluten, it's the wheat. For those who are really allergic to it, they must abstain--unless you serve rice cakes instead of bread.
     
  16. Zenas

    Zenas Active Member

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    My wife grew up in a SBC in a dry county not far from Louisville and they have always used wine. It is a small church and, until recently, they could not afford a full time pastor so they usually got a student at SBTS to serve as their pastor. She said it was always interesting to watch the new pastor and his wife the first time they had the Lord's Supper at her church.
     
  17. Zenas

    Zenas Active Member

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    I have heard this before, but only from people crusading against alcohol. It may be true but I would like to know the process they used. The only way I know of to keep grape juice or any other fruit from fermenting it to pasteurize it or freeze it.


    I hardly think the Jews of the 1st Century would ignore the commands concerning the Passover in Exodus 12. You are giving us a lot of Christian doctrine here and trying to make it apply to the pre-Christian era.
     
  18. Zenas

    Zenas Active Member

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    I'm not sure what you know but all these passages were directed to Christians, they were not being used in an evangelical context:
    If all sins were forgiven at the cross, these are nonsensical verses, especially 1 John 1:9. Moreover, that is not what the N.T. evangelists preached. The cross makes it possible for sins to be forgiven, and they are forgiven when a person asks for forgiveness. And yes, you have to do something to be saved. Otherwise everyone would be saved. Why do you think you are saved? It's because you put your trust in Jesus, i.e., you did something.

    For most sincere Christians, this doctrinal error of OSAS makes no difference because they live good lives and confess their sins when they need to. But it is a dangerous doctrine to deliver to others because it minimizes the consequences of sin. It leads people to believe they can commit sins without any consequence on their souls. I fear a lot of people who think they are going to Heaven because they were once saved will be surprised when they find themselves in Hell.
     
  19. Zenas

    Zenas Active Member

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    You know, EWF, I don't insist on wine, although I believe it is what Jesus would prefer. My church uses grape juice. I'm just making the case that if you think it is wrong to "sprinkle" you are being hypocritical unless you insist on using wine.
     
  20. Zenas

    Zenas Active Member

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    No it’s not. That is why it is significant in this discussion. If all sins are forgiven forever when you are saved, or at the cross, or whatever time in the past you want to select, then how can they be reforgiven? Or do you ask forgiveness again just to make sure? Just in case? That’s not showing much faith.
    No, you are only born again once, but being born again does not guarantee you will go to Heaven when you die (unless you die immediately after being born again).
    ISAS, OSAS, same thing.
    Yes I do, whenever anyone will listen because it is true.
    Yes there is—the Prodigal Son. Unless you belong to the school who thinks that parable is about Israel.
    Why is that difficult? I have been SBC all my life. I just don’t buy into the OSAS nonsense.
    What you mean is that you think I ought to adopt your system of hermeneutics, which can’t even get a simple verse like 1 John 1:9 right. No thanks, I will not use a system of hermeneutics that has the potential to send unsuspecting souls to Hell.
     
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