Wine or Grape Juice in the Communion Cup

This is an excellent point.

This is not a biblically-accurate point.

Leaven is used to symbolize something that spreads and pervades, not necessarily evil. Often it is used to portray things that are evil, but it is also used to represent the work and influence of God in this world.

Leaven is explicitly used to represent the Kingdom of Heaven/God in Matthew 13:33 and Luke 13:20-21, so no one should build a doctrine that claims leaven represents sin and corruption and then try to use that to select the elements for proper celebration at the Lord's Table.

 

You are misrepresenting the use of leaven in a parable.

Look up leaven in any Bible Dictionary and see what it says.
Here is one example (American Tract Society Dictionary:

 

The Bible teaches otherwise.
Wine isn't made and cannot be made without leaven. It is the corrupting influence that turns pure healthy grape juice into "corrupted grape juice," which is what fermented wine is. Thus the symbolism of fermented wine. One must look at the symbolism not the science. The Jews were not there with a science book equipped with a microscope and test tubes.

Also keep in mind, there were no wine bottles. Nothing that they had was made out of glass. Glass had not been invented yet. They did not have the technology we have. The wine we make today cannot be compared to the wine they made then. They didn't have "breweries." We tend to import our western culture and thinking and force it into the Bible and into their culture and times. It can't be done. It was a different time, and different wine.

 

But if they put wine in casks/barrels they could have fermented it for a long & gotten a very potent brew more akin to brandy.

 

Either more potent or more rotten; not sure which one. :laugh:

 

True, but that is the point. The yeast corrupts the grapes producing corrupted grape juice or wine. Thus the symbolism of leaven as corruption.

 

They had bottles. Potters made bottles out of clay. And I know someone that is making wine right now at his home, and he doesn't have a brewery.

But I do think there's a strong argument that primitive wine had a much lower alcohol content than modern wine.

 

Yes, Jesus made wine (grape juice) from water that was in large clay pots or urns. More commonly they used wine skins made out of leather. (Mat.9:17)

 

With all due respect, no I'm not.

Notice that the dictionary DOES NOT say that it represents corruption or false doctrine, but rather a pervading influence "by the purifying principles of the gospel, or by false doctrine and corrupt men."

When Jesus is talking about the "leaven of the scribes and the Pharisees," he is talking about their influence, that is, the way they do things.

Notice the way Jesus uses the image of leaven, paralleled with the way the tiny mustard seed becomes a huge tree:

Matthew 13:31-33

He presented another parable to them, saying, “The kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed, which a man took and sowed in his field; and this is smaller than all other seeds, but when it is full grown, it is larger than the garden plants and becomes a tree, so that THE BIRDS OF THE AIR come and NEST IN ITS BRANCHES.”

He spoke another parable to them, “The kingdom of heaven is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three pecks of flour until it was all leavened.”

Luke 13:18-21

So He was saying, “What is the kingdom of God like, and to what shall I compare it? It is like a mustard seed, which a man took and threw into his own garden; and it grew and became a tree, and THE BIRDS OF THE AIR NESTED IN ITS BRANCHES.”

And again He said, "To what shall I compare the kingdom of God? It is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three pecks of flour until it was all leavened.”

The leaven is a symbol of influence, not corruption.

 

The leaven of the Pharisees was their corrupt doctrine, which was the very thing that Jesus warned his disciples about.
All throughout the OT different feasts, and especially the Passover are to be observed without leaven? Why? It is a symbol of corruption. Consistently it represents corruption throughout the Bible.

Paul uses it the same way:
Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth. (1 Corinthians 5:7-8)
--Notice what leaven represents here: malice, wickedness.
But unleavend bread represented sincerity and truth.

One point of hermeneutics that is very important to observe.
One cannot teach doctrine from parables, or more importantly worded: Parables do not teach doctrine; they illustrate doctrine already taught in the Bible. If you are teaching a doctrine from a parable that is not taught elsewhere you know that it is wrong. The leaven in the parable does not mean anything special. Not everything in the parable has to symbolize something. One doesn't have to make the parable "walk on all fours," in its interpretation. The interpretation of the meaning of leaven is found elsewhere in Scripture, not in parables. Parables only illustrate doctrine that is already taught in the Scriptures.

 

Concerning leaven, Thayers records that there are 13 instances of the word being used in the New Testament. Thayers Definition is as follows:

Leaven is indeed something that corrupts, both metaphorically and physically. If left in grape juice, it brings about a physical corruption in the grape juice by turning it into alcohol.

 

Luke 13:20-21 And again he said, Whereunto shall I liken the kingdom of God? It is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.


Is the Kingdom of God corrupt?

 

If one considers present day scholarship surrounding the words used for wine in the New Testament it means fermented drink.

I'd recommend starting with a good lexicon (Strong's isn't a good lexicon) like BDAG or (if you're into Hebrew) HALOT then check Kittel's Theological Dictionary of the New Testament for the use of the words and their influences.

It seems pretty clear there was some fermentation going on. Do we absolutely know what proof the drink was? Certainly not, that isn't possible.

I know this messes with some Baptists so I'll leave it alone but scholarship, for the last several hundred years, isn't with them on this. Jesus made fermented drink and fermented drink was used in the Passover celebration.

If one considers the earliest Christian evidences (the earliest church practices) fermented beverages, or wine, were clearly part of the Lord's Supper observances from the first days of the Church.

That is where I'm coming from.

 

Your last question you may answer yourself.
In the parable Jesus said it is like leaven. Again, it is a parable. It doesn't walk on all fours. He is using a parable to illustrate Biblical truth, not using leaven to mean corruption. That can't be done here in a parable. Parables don't teach doctrine; they illustrate it. Jesus was illustrating what the Kingdom of God was like. Thus the normative use of leaven goes out the window here.

 

Although I think wine tastes better than simple grape juice, what about those who are not old enough to drink alcohol? I know it's a very small amount, but should minors drink any wine?