wine

That's the best question in this thread yet!

Great post btw!

also, just for the record I have never had an alcoholic drink in my life but will not force my Christian liberty to not drink over a fellow Christian who does.

 

I have had a few...
When I was going through a period that I thought Christians were all hypocrites, and preachers were just in it for pride.

But I have not had any since I repented... for 2 reasons...

1) I have a feeling, I could be an alcoholic real easy... I loved mixed drinks... so for that reason, I stay away from the temptation.
This is also why I support juice instead of wine at communion... How many recovering alcoholics would revert back if they get that taste... and after all, the cup is just symbolic anyway...

2) It is a cultural sin... IOWS, the culture I live in believes it is a sin, even if the Bible does not say it is, so in order to have a Godly influence where God put me, I will not drink alcohol.

But I know there are some that would not get drunk, and they live in a culture that it is not a sin, so therefore, I will not condemn them for drinking alcohol.... as long as they do it in moderation.

Which is what the Bible is talking about in Romans 14.

All things are allowed, but we need wisdom.

 

Curious about your church's covenant...what is an "appearance of evil"? Kind of broad, no?

I hate when churches make members sign ridiculous "covenants" that are not biblical. If the Bible doesn't condemn it...how can a local church?

At our church, I believe the leadership has to agree to something similar, and I don't believe that's right. The reasoning is if someone is at a restaurant having a glass of wine or beer...someone from the church might accuse them of getting drunk. That's ridiculous. That same someone can also accuse them of being a glutton. Are we to stop eating food in the name of not offending our brothers? My take on it is if someone is offended by it, their eror should be shown from Scripture. If someone is offended my wife wears pants, does she go out and buy an new wardrobe? If someone is offended I read anything besides the KJV, do I get rid of all my other Bibles? It seems this standard is only held in regards to alcohol, and that's wrong, IMO.

 

Anyone who is going to assume someone is drunk because they are drinking alcohol is never going to be satisfied no matter what you do. They want to believe the worst of a fellow brother, even without cause.

There is no excuse for that behavior, believer or unbeliever, as it is sin to deliberately make false assumptions. To worry about what these folks think of you is placing people's views above God.

We ought to fear God, not man.


With that, I don't drink and prefer to be with others who also do not drink. Drinking makes me uncomfortable, so we usually leave any occasion where there is even casual drinking. I ask ahead of time, and decline some invitations.
Alcohol is poison, drinking it is not healthy. Yet there is never a reason to falsely accuse a brethren of being intoxicated, again, that is sinning.

 

Sad to say, but some of our churches have become like the Rome Luther protested.

 

Belladonna is poison. It's also the only medicine that works for migraines for me. You can get belladonna-based migraine pills from health food stores.

My point is that poison is relative. You can die from water poisoning if you drink too much of it, since it dilutes your electrolytes to the point where your heart stops beating.

 

I see your point. I consider it poison when it is used for non-medicinal purposes because it isn't helping the body in that manner usually. Migraines cause more damage to the body than the solution of your pills (I believe) We all must weigh the options with being healthy as the goal.

I am not aware of belladonna migraine pills, thank you. I get migraines from time to time but I take vicodin, nothing else has worked for me. I am on vicodin right now because I sprained my ankle the day before yesterday and I need to go to work soon, thus force myself to walk to go check on the guys.

 

[FONT=&quot]WINEBIBBING



The following is from the new Advanced Bible
Studies Series on the book of Proverbs, which is
available from Way of Life Literature.

Proverbs 20:1; 23:20-21, 29-35; 31:2-7

1. THE WARNINGS ABOUT WINE IN PROVERBS ARE
WARNINGS ABOUT WINE THAT IS INTOXICATING
(Proverbs 23:30-31). It is wine that is fermented
and its intoxicating power is improved. It is
mixed wine, referring to wine that was mixed with
spices and other things to make it more
stimulating. It is wine that gives its color in
the cup and that moves itself aright. Matthew
Henry observes: "Some wine, they say, looks
charmingly, looks so well that it even says,
'Come and drink me;' it moves itself aright, goes
down very smoothly. It is said of generous
strong-bodied wine that it even causes the lips
of those that are asleep to speak." The average
wine of Bible times was non-intoxicating or only
very mildly intoxicating. Modern wines and beers,
on the other hand, unquestionably come under the
Bible's description of "mixed wine," not to speak
of today's powerful liquors. Norman Geisler
observed: "Many wine-drinking Christians today
mistakenly assume that what the New Testament
meant by wine is identical to wine used today.
This, however, is false. In fact, today's wine is
by biblical definition strong drink, and hence is
forbidden in the Bible. ... Even ancient pagans
did not drink what some Christians drink today"
(Focus in Missions, September 1986). Robert Stein
adds: “to consume the amount of alcohol that is
in two martinis today, by drinking wine
containing three parts water to one part wine (a
biblical ratio) a person would have to drink over
twenty-two glasses [of common wine from Bible
times]" (Ibid.).

2. ALCOHOLIC DRINK SHOULD BE AVOIDED BECAUSE IT
IS A MOCKER AND A DECEIVER (Prov. 20:1).

The fact that alcoholic drink is a mocker and
deceiver is an excellent reason for complete
abstinence from alcoholic beverages. If a person
determines to drink in "moderation," he doesn't
know if the alcohol will deceive him and enslave
him. Very few drunkards started out to be
drunkards. The drunkard is a person who was
deceived and captured. Alcoholic drink thus mocks
men by enslaving them. It also mocks men by
promising them what it cannot deliver (pleasure,
happiness) and taking from them what they did not
intend to give.

3. ALCOHOLIC DRINK SHOULD BE AVOIDED BECAUSE IT
IS ASSOCIATED WITH MANY EVILS AND DANGERS (Prov.
23:19-35).

This passage begins with the father urging his
son to hearken to his parents and to buy the
truth and sell it not (Prov. 23:22-23). The
father exhorts his son to "buy the truth" by
bending his whole heart and strength and life to
it and to "sell it not" for any of the Devil's
shallow, deceptive enticements. This is what will
protect the person from the enticement of worldly
activities and places that promote "social
drinking," such as modern dance parties, bars,
nightclubs, and taverns.

a. The winebibber has poverty (Prov. 23:19-21).
Proverbs counsels the young man to avoid the
company of winebibbers and gluttons, because they
produce poverty. It is certain that they produce
spiritual poverty, and it is often that they
produce financial poverty as well.

b. The winebibber has woe (Prov. 23:29). Many of
the woes in society are caused by drinking:
divorce, lost friendships, car and air crashes,
disease, fightings, crime, child delinquency,
teenage pregnancy, bankruptcy, suicide, and many
other things.

c. The winebibber has sorrow (Prov. 23:29). This
is such a sad but true statement. What sorrow he
has! Sorrow because of a guilty conscience;
because of lost opportunity; because of broken
marriages and friendships; because of fall from
social standing; because of loss of finances;
because of the consequences of drunken driving;
because of the loss of respect; because of
rebellious children. Winebibbing thus leads to
many suicides. One of my great uncles was a
wealthy man who owned two bars and was a heavy
drinker, and one day he drove up to a funeral
home in his Cadillac, put a gun to his head, and
killed himself.

d. The winebibber has contentions (Prov. 23:29).
How many fights, how many broken marriages, how
many broken friendships, how many stabbings and
shooting and beatings have followed in the wake
of drink?

e. The winebibber has babbling (Prov. 23:29). The
drunk speaks nonsense and foolishness.

f. The winebibber has wounds without cause (Prov.
23:29). The drunkard can't remember where he was
or what he did and he doesn't know how he got his
wounds. He doesn't remember the fight or the
crash or the fall. My wife's father crashed his
car one night in Alaska when he missed a sharp
turn after he had gone over a bridge. He was
found staggering along the road and didn't even
know what had happened.

g. The winebibber has redness of eyes (Prov.
23:29). He is affected in his body. His eyes are
affected; his kidneys are affected; his liver is
affected; his heart is affected; his brain is
affected.

h. The winebibber's eyes behold strange women
(Prov. 23:33). This is a powerful description of
the immorality that is intimately associated with
drinking. The winebibber's inhibitions are
weakened and he is attracted to loose women. It
has been said that "wine is the oil of the fire
of lust."

i. The winebibber's heart utters perverse things
(Prov. 23:33), such as cursing and bitterness and
blasphemy and filthy jokes.

j. The winebibber is careless and foolishly
fearless (Prov. 23:34). He would lie down and
sleep while floating in the midst of the sea or
while lying on the top of the mast of a sailing
ship a hundred feet above the deck. The drunkard
drives cars and flies airplanes when he is
intoxicated; he staggers along on a busy highway;
he enters rough bars he would not otherwise
enter; he challenges fierce men to a fight. I
read about a drunkard who climbed into a wild
animal cage and was mauled. The winebibber is
careless in spending money. He is careless in
morals. He is careless in running with the wrong
crowd. He is careless in throwing away priceless
relationships and precious friendships.

k. The winebibber doesn't feel pain (Prov.
23:35). The drunkard is oblivious to the pain
caused by his drunken folly until he wakes up
from his stupor.

l. The winebibber is strangely enslaved ("when
shall I awake? I will seek it yet again," Prov.
23:35). Before one drunken episode is barely
finished he wants to seek it yet again. Even when
drink has ruined his health and destroyed his
marriage and thrown away his career, he usually
does not quit. "It is like a deep ditch and a
narrow pit, which it is almost impossible to get
out of; and therefore it is wisdom to keep far
enough from the brink of it. Take heed of making
any approaches towards this sin, because it is so
hard to make a retreat from it, conscience, which
should head the retreat, being debauched by it,
and divine grace forfeited" (Matthew Henry).

4. SOLOMON'S MOTHER WARNED FERVENTLY AND LOVINGLY ABOUT WINE (Prov. 31:2-9).

a. She counseled that drinking is not for kings
(Prov. 31:2-5, 8-9). It is a sad fact that most
political leaders today are heavy drinkers. "We
are told that every day in Washington there are
many cocktail parties for our government
officials. Republicans and Democrats both have
this in common--the party membership doesn't make
any difference. It is tragic to have drinking men
in high positions of government" (J. Vernon
McGee). "The more important any man's work is, he
is the more obliged to be temperate in all
things; and drunkenness, which is a damning sin
in any person, is attended with prodigious
aggravations in those men that dispense the
mysteries of the gospel, or administer the public
affairs of the nation" (George Lawson).

Drinking can cause one to give away his strength;
it makes him weak and foolish (Prov. 31:3). It
detracts from the authority of his position. It
makes the individual foolish and careless. Drink
has caused men to give away the secrets of their
office. It has caused men in positions of
authority to fail to act in a decisive and right
and timely fashion during crises. Drink has
weakened presidents and prime ministers and
governors and military officers and judges and
police captains. U.S. President George W. Bush
recently recalled his drinking days and explained
that it was faith in God that gave him the
discipline to stop. He then made this statement,
"I wouldn't be president if I kept drinking. You
get sloppy, can't make decisions, it clouds your
reason, absolutely" ("Bush tells biographer: 'I
do tears,'" Associated Press, Sept. 4, 2007).

Drinking can lead to immorality (Prov. 31:3). We have already seen this.

Drinking can lead to perversion of justice (Prov.
31:5). The one who drinks weakens his moral
character and resolve and often associates with
wicked men, and the Bible warns that evil
communications corrupt good manners (1 Cor.
15:33).

b. She counseled that drinking is only for those
who are perishing (Prov. 31:6-7).

She taught that alcohol can be used carefully for
medicinal purposes, but it should not be used for
recreation.

Proverbs 31:7 is spoken for effect and not as
actual advice. The last thing the poor man needs
is to be drunk. The wise mother is saying that
wine cannot help anyone do right; it can only
drown out reality and create an unreal and unwise
state of mind.[/FONT]

 

Seriously, does NNE own a dictionary anymore? Wine is a grape juice that may or maynot have alcohol in it.

wine: 1. The fermented juice of grapes esp. as a beverage, made in many varieties, as red or white, sweet or dry, and still or sparkling, and containing no more than 14 % alcohol. 2. The juice, fermented or unfermented, of varous fruits, used esp. as a beverage.

I have made grape juice in my canner using grapes I grow myself. These jars do not contain any alcohol, and never will, no matter how long I let them sit.

Well, anyway, this thread doesn't seem to be about figuring out whether the wine in the Bible had alcohol or not. Seems to me, this thread is just about proving your side right, for whatever reason. I have yet to see a side win on this issue ever.

love,

Sopranette

 

Jesus wouldn't be able to sign that covenant. He intentionally and routinely violated the religious rules of His day (the Sabbath restrictions, touching "sinners", etc.) to minister to those in need and to teach the religious people that their rules undermined the true commandments of God.

And if you read the Gospels carefully, you will see that Jesus purposefully did things to upset the religious crowd.

 

But were the writers of scripture using your English dictionary when they wrote out the Bible in King James English?

:BangHead:

 

Were the English translaters right or wrong, then? Should they have used fermented grape juice in one verse, and unfermented grape juice in another? Wine is used correctly in each verse, since wine is both an alcoholic drink and a non alcoholic drink.

love,

Sopranette

 

Where wine is found in the Word of God, it is either the unfermented juice of the grape or other fruit, or it is the fermented beverage ... context shows which it is.

 

And of course the determining factor of whether or not it is fermented is our pressupositions if we think it is right or wrong.....right?!:laugh:

 

I can't understand why we want to rescue Jesus from his milieu. Fermented wine was served as a custom at dinner. Jesus went to a lot of dinners. Therefore, Jesus would have used the fermented wine, which was served at dinner.

Jesus was a man of His times!

 

Kind of like Abraham helping God fulfill His Promise for a son leading to the Messiah. Abraham figured God forgot how old he and Sarah were, so he thought he would make God's Promise come true with Hagar.

 

They did. Read the vow a Nazarite took. Clear distinction between fruit juice and wine.

 

:thumbs: Amen! The word "wine" in the Bible is a generic word--it can mean the unfermented juice of the grape (fruit of the vine) or fermented juice of the grape--depending on the context. The word "wine" today ALWAYS means alcoholic/fermented--and in actuality it is considered the "strong drink" which is forbidden by God.

This wine in Proverbs 20:1:

Proverbs 20:1 Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.

is NOT the same as this wine in Isaiah 65:8:

Isaiah 65:8 Thus saith the LORD, As the new wine is found in the cluster, and one saith, Destroy it not; for a blessing is in it: so will I do for my servants' sakes, that I may not destroy them all.