With regard to justification

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Thinkingstuff, May 11, 2009.

  1. Thinkingstuff

    Thinkingstuff
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    I had previously brought up a thread about Justification and wondered how it opperated. Most here save for a few hold that Justification is a one time event whereby we are "declaired" righteous. As in a legal proclimation with regard to the Law and its requirement. But I came accross this perspective and wanted to here a dialogue with regard to it. But not much materialized.

    Here is the jist of it. The NT verb dikaioo (to justify) is often viewed as a means of declaration
    But is this the whole of it? Can it not mean to make us righteous? That this often used verse often refer to scriptures
    Seems that if God declaires something it is made so. Look at creation
    So God's word might be
    So might it mean to make one righteous so that we can say
    and are actually made so. And that being the case this passage
    shows us 1) the Gospel is salvation to everyone who believes and 2) the righteous shall live by faith.
    Here
    Why does Paul emphasis doing good? So we come to faith
    Faith expressed in love (doing good). So that his new covenant here
    Through Justification in Jesus blood provide is providing this opportuninty of being made righteous and we are therefore
    Inserted into this felial relationship. But this is not to be confused with earning salvation or justification because of
    But so that we're "made"
    and
    Thoughts?
     
  2. Tom Butler

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    The reason God may declare a believer righteous (that is, to impute Jesus' righteousness to us) is that we are not and never will be righteous enough to be saved.

    Our righteousness is not good enough to satisfy God's justice. If it were, Jesus would not have had to die.

    One sin will mess up everything.
     
  3. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    HP: 1Jo 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
    1Jo 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

    That sums it up very plain as I see it. So much for imputed righteousness if in fact we are still in our sins as shown forth by our unrighteous acts of disobedience. Subsequent to the initial act of faith at salvation, either we are doing righteousness or we are not righteous.
     
  4. Thinkingstuff

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    But are we not "saved unto good works"? Not that the works save but that salvations is for us to be able to be righteous not just in declaration but to be made so. Which is where James was going with it.
     
  5. Thinkingstuff

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    What about insertion into the felial relationship?
     
  6. Tom Butler

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    Agreed. Believers should seek holiness and righteousness. The problem is that our righteousness, however good it is, is not good enough.

    We gain entrance to heaven only because of Christ's righteousness, not our own.

    Getting this wrong has led some to believe one can eventually reach a point where he no longer sins.
     
  7. Thinkingstuff

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    But isn't that the Goal that Pauls ask that we strive for as though we are running a race not looking back? Not that we'll ever reach it but that shouldn't stop us from running our hearts out. Also with the power of the Holy Spirit Doesn't God make it possible for us to be more successful than ever under sin?
     
  8. Alive in Christ

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    Thinkingstuff...

    It is true that we are "declared" rightious in Gods eyes. But its more than that. We are seen as being completely and perfectly rightious by Him because the rightiousness of the Lord Jesus Christ has been imputed to us.

    It is given to us as a gift, just as eternal life is given to us as a gift. The scriptures speak of our being "hidden" in Christ.

    From Collosians 3:3...

    We are so identified with Christ that it is "as if" we had never sinned when God "sees" us...because Christ had no sin.

    We dont pretend to be rightious, or have to "act" rightious for God...we ARE 100% rightious in His sight. Not in our practice, because that could never be. Every last one of us would be disqualified for eternal life if that were the case.

    But POSITIONALLY...we are completely rightious.


    Someone HAD to do it FOR us, because that is our only hope. And that one was the Lord Jesus Christ.


    We can not even come close to ever thanking God enough for His wonderful provision. I get emotional just posting about it.

    Glory to God. Thank you Jesus.
     
  9. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    HP: What are you asking?
     
  10. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    HP: It is impossible for the mind to strive to attain that which it sees as a natural impossibility.
     
  11. Tom Butler

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    Yes. All believers should seek holiness and righteousness. But Jesus set the standard this way: "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father in heaven is perfect." That standard is impossible to meet. Were it possible, Jesus need not have died. But he did, paid for our sin, and God therefore is just in declaring us judicially righteous enough.

    Not actually righteous enough. But judicially.
     
  12. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    HP: Tom, once one sins they are in need of a Savior. If by some chance they would remain perfect after salvation, why would this negate their need for a Savior in the first place? Your argument holds no water.

    You obviously have defined righteousness in such a way as to supersede God’s standard when you male it impossible to reach. The very fact that God requires it out of man shows clearly that indeed it is not impossible with the help proffered to achieve. We have clear testimony of at least some that achieved such a state. Lu 1:6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.” (to name just one such declaration by God of tow individuals)

    Are you going to tell God that he does not know what He is speaking about? Scripture states clearly that he that “DOETH righteousness is righteous.” Where is the text that speaks of righteousness as a mere judicial declaration? Possibly you might post that text for us?
     
  13. Gold Dragon

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    #13 Gold Dragon, May 17, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: May 17, 2009
  14. Tom Butler

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    You are correct, of course.

    And we must balance that against Paul's declaration in Romans 3:10 "There is none righteous...." Are these contradictory, or can they be resolved? I think they can. A believer can do righteousness, but not be perfect. My point is that our righteousness is not enough to satisfy God's justice.

    [/QUOTE]

    He is righteous, but not sinless. Christ's propitiation satisfied God's justice, so that he could declare us righteous, just as a judge would declare the speeding ticket paid for, even if not by the offender. The offender is not innocent, but the judge has declared him so because the penalty has been paid.
     
  15. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    HP: Excellent post Gold Dragon. I might add that Scripture uses the three words, saved, justified, and sanctified in more than one sense as well. One inculcates error into their theology by limiting the sense of any of these terms to a singular sense, in particular a past sense, as if though all has been accomplished that will or can be accomplished in regards to any of these terms due to a singular act of faith and that without the possibility of negation. Certainly God has finished making the grounds our salvation a finalized once for all a reality, but that must be appropriated in our lives via the fulfilling of the conditions of salvation, which involve all three senses. To be saved (in the sense of an unchangable eternal reality)I must have exercised repentance and faith (i.e. the conditions necessary to enter into the hope of eternal life, I must then continue to walk in obedience, and yet still I must be judged by God in the end to have fulfilled the condition of continuing obedience to the end. Mt 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

    The corpus of salvation, justification, and sanctification involve all three tenses and can be thought of or spoken of in three senses as well. Neither salvation, justification or sanctification will be completed ‘in eternal finality’ until we can look in retrospect to the final judgment. Only as we hear those words. “Well done thou good and faithful servant” will our salvation, justification, and sanctification be understood as a singular unchangeable eternal reality.
     
    #15 Heavenly Pilgrim, May 17, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: May 17, 2009
  16. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    Quote:
    HP: You obviously have defined righteousness in such a way as to supersede God’s standard when you make it impossible to reach. The very fact that God requires it out of man shows clearly that indeed it is not impossible with the help proffered to achieve. We have clear testimony of at least some that achieved such a state. Lu 1:6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.” (to name just one such declaration by God of tow individuals)

    HP: First, there are those that can be properly denoted as righteous. There are those that seek God. There are those that are now not gone out of the way. The passage you are referring to (Romans 3:10) is not a declaration that none have ever been righteous or that none then were not righteous. Such an interpretation contradicts God’s testimony of many individuals in Scripture. The passage you are referring to is making a point that all have sinned, both Jews and Gentiles and that none are righteous in and of themselves. One does NOT have to then conclude that righteousness is simply imputed and as such a judicial decree placed upon a selected few.

    It is true that once we have became sinners, God must impute His righteousness to us to cover for sins that are past, (Ro 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are PAST, through the forbearance of God;" but that does not preclude the fact that subsequent to that cleansing for past sins that we do not purposefully and directly do righteousness as a direct result of our formed intents withthe help proferred by God. “1Jo 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.” Subsequent to ones initial cleansing, the will must choose to do righteousness in order to remain righteous. If we fail to continue in righteous actions, i.e., doing righteousness, we fail to be recognized as being righteous and as such have no certain hope. To believe otherwise is to presume upon the grace of God. God makes no righteous zombies. Righteousness, other than the imputed righteousness for sins that are PAST, is simply a false notion apart from forsaking sin and choosing to form intents consistent with God’s moral law.

    Scripture speaks of us being found worthy of the grace God has proffered. Lu 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.” That will not be accomplished apart from the will of man doing righteousness, forming intents in accordance to that which voluntarily is in agreement to God’s moral law. Righteousness, subsequent to ones initial act of faith, is not continued in apart from the cooperation of man’s voluntary formed intents of the will. Yes, man can not only do righteousness, but is required by God to do so to continue in the faith. There are indeed some that are righteous, i.e. those that doeth righteousness. “1Jo 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.”
     
    #16 Heavenly Pilgrim, May 17, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: May 17, 2009
  17. Amy.G

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    If Zacharias was sinless, he could have been our savior, correct? If man is capable of sinless perfection, he doesn't need a savior, but such is not the case. All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

    God punished Zach by taking away his ability to speak because he doubted God. Is this not sin?

    When the bible refers to someone as blameless, it doesn't mean they are sinless, but that their heart is right with God. Their desire is to please God.
     
  18. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    HP: Mere men, sinless or not, have any innate ability to forgive the sins of others nor pay for any of their own. Where in the world do you come up with the notion that they could forgive sins if they themselves were sinless?



    HP: Regardless of the clear testimony of God concerning a few in the OT dispensation, all in our dispensation are sinners and in need of a Savior. Ac 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
    HP: I will let God condemn them if He so desires, but there is not the least ground to stand on, by what is granted to us in Scripture, that either was guilty of sin. If we make it in we will have ample opportunity to ask both them and God. Here again is God’s own testimony of both him and his wife. Lu 1:6 “And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.”

    Go ahead Amy. Are you not doubting God’s Word concerning the life they lived? Is it sin to doubt God? You tell us since it seems to me that it is you as well that doubts God's Word.



    HP: You cannot have sin and be blameless, walking in all the commandments and even the ordinances of God at one and the same time. Something cannot be and not be at the same time in the same sense. Either one is sinful or they are holy. Either one can be blamed due to sin or they cannot. Your heart cannot be right and blameless before God while harboring sin. Sin and holiness, blameworthiness and blameless, are terms in conflict, terms at antipodes with each other. You cannot be both at the same time in the same sense.
     
    #18 Heavenly Pilgrim, May 17, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: May 17, 2009
  19. Amy.G

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    I got that notion from you! :BangHead:

    Why do you think God Himself had to be our Savior???? Could it be because only He is sinless? There is no other that is qualified. The Lamb of God had to be spotless. Only Christ is spotless.
    I suppose you also believe in the sinless perfection of Mary?






    So in OT times, men were able to achieve sinlessness, never to sin even once in their lifetimes, but human nature changed when Christ brought in the New Covenant and men cannot be sinless now. :tonofbricks:

    I don't doubt God's word. I doubt your interpretation of it.
    Do you doubt God's word?
    Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;


    1Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for [the sins of] the whole world.


    I guess Jesus didn't die for the sins of Zacharias, since he didn't have any. :rolleyes:
     
  20. Tom Butler

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    HP, I want to make sure that I understand what you're arguing here. Correct me, of course, if I've misunderstood.

    If I understand you, you are not saying that there are some who have led sinless lives.

    Are you saying that there are some who have reached the point of sanctification where they no longer sin?

    Are you saying that righteous, blameless and sinless are synonymous?

    If yes, what are the implications regarding justification and imputed righteousness? Are you saying that one may reach a point where he no longer must appeal to Christ's righteousness, and no longer needs it because he has achieved his own righteousness?

    I though I knew what your views were, but I just want to make sure.
     

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