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With the Help of the Lord

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Tazman, Feb 6, 2007.

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  1. Tazman

    Tazman New Member

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    I read this today.

    DO YOU AGREE WITH THE FOLLOWING STATEMENT? Why or Why not?

    But the Lord replies, "Because what is impossible with men is possible with God." This again is full of great wisdom. For a man by himself working and toiling at freedom from passion achieves nothing. But if he plainly shows himself very desirous and earnest about this, he attains it by the addition of the power of God. For God conspires with willing souls. But if they abandon their eagerness, the spirit which is bestowed by God is also restrained. For to save the unwilling is the part of one exercising compulsion; but to save the willing, that of one showing grace. Nor does the kingdom of heaven belong to sleepers and sluggards, "but the violent take it by force."
     
    #1 Tazman, Feb 6, 2007
  2. billwald

    billwald New Member

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    Disagree. John 3 teaches that the Holy Spirit regenerates whom he will. Regeneration preceeds conversion. The person realizes he is regenerated and converts. In other words, the soul is willing because it has been regenerated.
     
    #2 billwald, Feb 6, 2007
  3. av1611jim

    av1611jim New Member

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    Disagree with both posts.

    The one shows regeneration before believing while the other shows regeneration only so long as one cooperates.

    Both are in error.
     
    #3 av1611jim, Feb 7, 2007
  4. Tazman

    Tazman New Member

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    But the Lord replies, "Because what is impossible with men is possible with God."

    I think we all agree with the above, but does what follow agree with the passage?

    This again is full of great wisdom. For a man by himself working and toiling at freedom from passion achieves nothing. But if he plainly shows himself very desirous and earnest about this, he attains it by the addition of the power of God.

    As stated above it seems that the belief is God works with man to carry him along, rather than God himself doing all the work.

    So is the following acceptable or no?

    For God conspires with willing souls.

    Does one need eagerness in order for the Spirit to assist?

    But if they abandon their eagerness, the spirit which is bestowed by God is also restrained. For to save the unwilling is the part of one exercising compulsion; but to save the willing, that of one showing grace. Nor does the kingdom of heaven belong to sleepers and sluggards, "but the violent take it by force."

    So, base on the above would it be true that God would not save the unwilling?
     
    #4 Tazman, Feb 7, 2007
  5. billwald

    billwald New Member

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    Conversion is the human response to regeneration.
     
    #5 billwald, Feb 7, 2007
  6. amity

    amity New Member

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    This does not seem to fit with the passage of scripture. In it, Christ has told the rich young ruler to sell all that he has and give it to the poor, and follow Him. The rich young ruler went away sorrowful, but Christ loved him anyway. Even without works on his part. Thus what is impossible with men is possible with God.

    Seems just the opposite to me.
     
    #6 amity, Feb 7, 2007
  7. DQuixote

    DQuixote New Member

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    What's the right word for the passage in the OP? Convoluted? Oxymoron? Whatever it is, the first portion and the second portion are 180 degrees out. Deal, or No Deal? No deal!
    :wavey:
     
    #7 DQuixote, Feb 7, 2007
  8. Tazman

    Tazman New Member

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    Doesn't the Rich man approach Jesus (and Jesus loved him) and when told what he needed to do by Jesus, the man left on his own. The man had free will didn't he? Jesus didn't run after the man. He let him go, as with anyone one else seeking Him.
    In principal, Jesus makes the point to his disciples that attaining righteousnes without Christ.
    So, I think it fits just fine, because, if someone want to really be righteous He cannot do it completly on his own, but when making efforts, God will help him.

    God gives good enough reason to want to Seek him. Jesus! That's the motivation, but Jesus does not MAKE anyone follow him.

    So coming to Christ a person is, by their own will (or desire), choosing to seek him motivated by Gods Love. Are they not?
     
    #8 Tazman, Feb 7, 2007
  9. Tazman

    Tazman New Member

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    billwald and av1611jim, are not you guys from the basically the same church base? Then why do you disagree?
    Both disagree with the OP, but both of your reasons are different even when applying scripture.
     
    #9 Tazman, Feb 7, 2007
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