Witness to my Roman Catholic Parents

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by Nimrod, Jan 2, 2003.

  1. Nimrod

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    New Years Eve I had a chance to witness to my Roman Catholic parents. We discussed the canon, Matt 16, Matt 18, John 6, 2 Tim 3:16, early Church fathers, Luther(impossible to talk to a Catholic without this name coming up), salvation, James "work plus faith", the sacrifice and the sufficiency of the cross, and the Holy Scriptures. IMOHO I found it unfruitful to discuss topics that are far from Scripture. Like Luther and the early Church fathers, none of these men are infallible and none of these men write as if they were inspired by the Holy Spirit. We should stick to Scripture, and Scripture ALONE otherwise we are just giving our opinion. See 2 Tim 3:16.

    These are some of the things my mother said that really bothered me.
    about Matt 16. She said "Jesus was speaking in Aramaic and Peter and "Rock" are the same words."
    ARRRgh! How many times am I going to hear this false statment from Roman Catholics? The NT was written in Greek, we don't know for sure what the HS would have written if it was in Aramaic. I asked her what is her proof that Matt was written in Aramaic? There was no answer.

    Early Church Fathers: She said the "Roman Catholic Church follows all the early Church Fathers and Councils." When I told her that the RCC doesn't agree will all the decrees in the councils she said "Well thats not dogma".

    The many protestant denominations: She said "You can travel the world and find a RCC and go to that mass, unlike protestants. And that is the problem with protestants, everyone translate the Bible different and so you have all these different denominations". I had an answer for that but she didn't want to hear it.

    Overall I find that the information she has is false and she is getting it from some Roman Catholic source, I really would like to know where, we know she isn't learning this from going to Mass. Her Bible knowledge only dealt with the Roman Catholic faith. She knew very little about the entire Scripture as a whole.

    I wish I spent more time in the Word with her and have her tell me what verses mean in the Holy Scripture. Scripture Alone, Faith Alone, Jesus Alone
     
  2. Bible-belted

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    "These are some of the things my mother said that really bothered me.
    about Matt 16. She said "Jesus was speaking in Aramaic and Peter and "Rock" are the same words."
    ARRRgh! How many times am I going to hear this false statment from Roman Catholics? The NT was written in Greek, we don't know for sure what the HS would have written if it was in Aramaic. I asked her what is her proof that Matt was written in Aramaic? There was no answer."

    While I certainly agree that we must base our theology on the text we HAVE, and not the text we might have (I personally do not believe that there was an Aramaic original to Matthew), I see no harm inconceding this possibility. Two reasons: 1) It does not commit you to actually accepting the significance of Peter being the rocvk of which Christ spoke, and 2) if we acept that we must ask what other wors of significance might have been in the passage in Aramaic. One is the word (in the aramaic original theory) whcih would be translated "ekklesia". It is thwe word for "community", a word lacking the ecclesiastical ovetones so assumed in RC interpretation. So even accepting the aramaic idea, the RC loses more than he gains, for the thing founded upon Peter is no longer the type of organisation that the RC believes in.

    "Early Church Fathers: She said the "Roman Catholic Church follows all the early Church Fathers and Councils." When I told her that the RCC doesn't agree will all the decrees in the councils she said "Well thats not dogma". "

    RCs always cherry pick. Of course we do too, bt we don't make the claims that RCs do, so that's not relevant. Our failure to not live up to ther claims for themselves is not relevant. it is how we live up to what we claim for ourselves as evangelical protestants that counts.

    "The many protestant denominations: She said "You can travel the world and find a RCC and go to that mass, unlike protestants. And that is the problem with protestants, everyone translate the Bible different and so you have all these different denominations". I had an answer for that but she didn't want to hear it."

    You can go anywhere in the world to a McDonald's and get the same tasting hamburger. I would hardly call that a virtue. :D

    Seriously though, what's wrong with diversity in opinion on disputable issues? There is diversity within the Godhead.

    But really this is not even a true staemetn. Most denominations ae not formed along doctrinal lines, but ethnic, linguistic, or geopolitical lines. Nor do all denominations have differing doctrines.

    It is also a fact, one too often ignored, that ou have differing interpretations of the fathers and Councils amongst RCs. Why are such differences so significant if they occur among portestants but not at all significant when they occur among RCs? I sense a double standard here...

    "Overall I find that the information she has is false and she is getting it from some Roman Catholic source, I really would like to know where, we know she isn't learning this from going to Mass. Her Bible knowledge only dealt with the Roman Catholic faith. She knew very little about the entire Scripture as a whole."

    From the sounds of ity I would suspect Karl Keating's "Roman Catholicism and Fundamentalism". But of course I cannot be certain.

    Sounds like your mother is more interested in keeping to her chosen religion than she is interested in having a biblical relationship with God. Sad, but she is far from unique. And you, my friend, are far from alone in your efforts to see such people come to Christ. I too have family like this. We pray and we speak the truth in love. It is all we can do. We can plant and water, but only God gives the growth.
     
  3. GraceSaves

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    Nice of you to plan an assualt on your parents for the New Year. I'm glad they stood their ground.

    Her answer wasn't correct, no, as the book of Matthew was not written in Aramaic. But aren't you one who would agree that we don't have to be scholars to have faith? She has faith, and you're asking for scholarly information on what book was written in what langauge. Few people are going to be able to discuss that, in all reality. However, Jesus DID speak in Aramaic. Peter DOES mean Rock, as the words used in Matthew and that used by Paul attest. While the age-old arguement of "little pebble" comes up, anyone with sense can see that Peter, being a male, required the male form of the word, even though the feminine form was the word intended, since it was immediately repeated, and following a blessing.

    The Church doesn't agree with all of the councils? Umm, I'm betting you didn't give them any examples, just like you didn't know, because there are no statements, as your parents stated, in relation to dogma, that the Church has backed down from, deleted, or altered (unless it was to further clarify a point).

    What was going to be your answer? That Mass is different everywhere? That would be false. That people translate and intepret the Bible all the same? That would be false. The reason there ARE so many denominations is based on varying understandings of what the Bible teaches. I'm very wary of what answer you were planning to give her.

    Then if you really care about her, which I'm sure you do, encourage her to read and study Scripture. Find references from Councils (there are many) that show that the Scriptures should be highly important to her. Encourage her to read; don't try to convert her on a whim.

    Well, since Scripture alone and Faith alone are false teachings, I'm glad she did not succumb. I will agree, though, that we are saved only by the name of Jesus.

    God bless,

    Grant
     
  4. Bible-belted

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    "Nice of you to plan an assualt on your parents for the New Year. I'm glad they stood their ground."

    Give us a break. To say that one "gets a chance to witness" is hardly "planning an assault". Or do you regard all witnessing as "an assault"? Is that what you consider what you do here? Do you have a double standard?

    "She has faith, and you're asking for scholarly information on what book was written in what langauge. Few people are going to be able to discuss that, in all reality."

    This misses the point. If you are going to raise an issue, you should be able to discuss it. Otherwise you are merely citing a slogan. If you don't undertsand the issue, you shouldn't try to defend yourself with it.

    Besides, I believe it is a signo of how the parents stood on irrationality, not faith, if they stood on arguments they did not understand.
     
  5. Nimrod

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    What was going to be your answer? That Mass is different everywhere? That would be false. That people translate and intepret the Bible all the same? That would be false. The reason there ARE so many denominations is based on varying understandings of what the Bible teaches. I'm very wary of what answer you were planning to give her.

    Grant
    </font>[/QUOTE]My answer would have been: I can do the same. I can go to a bapists church, presybertian, Calvary chapel, and many other non-denominations and feel right at home. In heaven there is no denominations but only belivers in Christ.

    I am not a dispensationalist, but I attend a Church where they believe in that. But so what if their end-time prophecy is different than mine.
    There isn't a church in the world that hold the exact same beliefs as I do.

    Your statment "The reason there ARE so many denominations is based on varying understandings of what the Bible teaches." is correct. Is that wrong? Could you explain why Mormon, JW's and RC use this type of thinking with protestants? Why is this such a big issue?
     
  6. GraceSaves

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    It's a big issue because God is absolute, and thus He didn't give us information so that we could fight over it. He let His apostles know what we needed to know, and only that was was the Truth.

    God bless,

    Grant
     
  7. Nimrod

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    Are you saying that protestants are wrong because of their disunity?
     
  8. Nimrod

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    Are you saying Roman Catholics is right because there is no disunity?
     
  9. Son of Consolation

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    Just a little interjection here. Call it a simple observation on my part. We probably could argue till the imminent return of our Lord Jesus, whether He meant a little pebble or a rock, but when we examine Scripture with Scripture we can clearly ascertain that it was a rock. We can also further ascertain that Jesus most definitely did not mean Peter as The Rock, as the foundation of His Church, for if it would have been Peter, then it would have been a very shaky foundation indeed! But thank God that the foundation, the rock, Jesus was referring to, is indeed solid as He reinforced it by the following statement: "...and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it!" Now, it is quite obvious that there was only one Person who was capable of prevailing against hell, and it isn't Peter.

    See the following Scripture passages:

    Isaiah 28:16 "Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation..."

    1 Corinthians 3:11 "For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ." [​IMG]
     
  10. Johnv

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    New Years Eve I had a chance to witness to my Roman Catholic parents.

    Looks like you used your chance to witness and turned it into a chance to assault. Not very mindful of the 5th commandment, methinks.
     
  11. Netcurtains3

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    I'm a Catholic Parent.

    If you tidy your bedroom a bit I might listen to some of your half baked ideas.

    [​IMG]
     
  12. Nimrod

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    They never told me to stop.
     
  13. DHK

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    I doubt very much that the main issue separating these Catholic parents from the faith of their son, who happens to be a computer software engineer, is the tidiness of his bedroom.
    DHK
     
  14. Nimrod

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    Could you explain to me this verse in Psalms 18
    For who is God, except the Lord? And who is a rock, except our God?
     
  15. Johnv

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    Out of respect for your parents, you never should have started.

    I'm hoping this didn't happen at your parents' house. If so, you should have had respect for your parents' home.
     
  16. GraceSaves

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    I think you, as well as others in this thread, have a false understanding of what it means to have Peter as the rock of the Church. We all know that Christ ascended into Heaven, so while He is the head of the Church, he is invisible to us. There is, therefore, no visible leader. That may be fine for you, but it is not for me. You may claim the Scriptures are you visible head, but words, as we all know, can be and are often construed.

    Therefore, yes, Christ IS the ROCK, but Christ gave that authority, which is infallible, to Peter, who was a fallible man. This does not make Peter an infallible man, but merely with an authority, that when exercised, is the authority of Christ, for it was given him BY Christ, and is kept in tact by the Holy Spirit.

    Peter is only the rock of the Church BECAUSE of Christ, the rock. Christ filled him with the Holy Spirit so that he, and his successors, could visibly lead us to our perfect Savior.

    I'm not asking you to believe it; I'm asking you to simply try and understand our point of view. The Holy Spirit will lead you to Truth.

    God bless,

    Grant
     
  17. trying2understand

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    In that you are giving your interpretation of Scripture, you are just giving your opinion anyway.

    Actually, you are most likely giving some other person's interpretation of Scripture that you heard and decided to agree with.

    Ron
     
  18. GraceSaves

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    I have Lutheran parents, who I would love to be Catholic. But that is not something I can do. Family is family, and seeing family differ in faith is painful, for both sides. Therefore every possible discussion is filled with high tentions and pent up emotional energy that usually explodes. You want your parents to believe like you do; it usually has nothing to do with allowing them to have their own faith. If you don't want us Catholics "forcing" our beliefs on you, how do you justify doing the same with your parents? Based on Nimrod's wording, he was very much trying to force them out of the their Catholic beliefs.

    Nimrod raised the issue, not she. Not everyone is prepared to discuss every aspect of their faith. I think that they should, but that's out of my control. I doubt every Baptist is fluent on Church history and doctrine as to be able to fully explain it to someone who isn't familiar with it. This is a moot argument, because the fact that they can't accurately defend it does not make the belief false.

    I guess this is just a problem that Catholics have? I forgot that every else is perfectly knowledgable about the faith they hold to. Riiiiight. But you don't state that, do you. You make is out to be a Catholic-only problem. For that, you should be ashamed.

    Grant
     
  19. Nimrod

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    In that you are giving your interpretation of Scripture, you are just giving your opinion anyway.

    Actually, you are most likely giving some other person's interpretation of Scripture that you heard and decided to agree with.

    Ron
    </font>[/QUOTE]A few questions Ron.

    Scripture is God's inerrant Word. Yes/No ?
    Early Church Fathers/Councils were their words inerrant? Yes/No?

    Scripture is inspired by the Holy Spirit. YEs/No?
    Every word the Early Church Fathers/councils, were they inspired by the HS?

    If we just stick to Scripture, aren't we saying "just stick to God's Words"?

    Where does it say that Early Church Fathers/ Councils/ or Popes are infallible without looking at Scripture?
     
  20. GraceSaves

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    Nimrod,

    You do just realize you've started yet another 20+ page thread by asking that question, in which no answer will be reached, people will get angry, and in general, nothing good will be accomplished?

    Just checking. ;)

    God bless,

    Grant
     

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