Witnesses Against You

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by npetreley, May 14, 2007.

  1. npetreley

    npetreley
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    This is a favorite passage of free-willers:

    I have stated in many threads that the key to understanding this passage is the portion I have emphasized in bold. As far as I can see, nobody has addressed why God put it that way. I will gladly explain my view, but I'd love to hear from free-willers why God would say that he called witnesses AGAINST them as to the matter of what He just said was a very simple choice.

    Given that this is Deuteronomy, and a statement of laws, and God says they're simple and near you and easy to understand, I would also like a free-willer to please point out a single person other than Jesus who actually obeyed each and every law to which these statements refer.
     
  2. StraightAndNarrow

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    We now operate under the second covenant. The Old Testament is important to understand the New Testament but it's not that important.
     
  3. npetreley

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    I take issue with the idea of underestimating the importance of the OT, but that would hijack the thread and it has nothing to do with the issues I've raised.

    Free-willers love to quote the passage because it says the instructions previously given are easy to understand, not too far away that you can't find them, etc.

    Then it says to choose.

    I have pointed out before that it presents the choice with "This day I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you", which MEANS something. What does it mean in terms of using this passage to prove free will?

    Furthermore, as I asked, does any free-willer know of any person besides Jesus who actually fulfilled all of the instructions that led up to this section -- instructions necessary to choose life?

    Anyone? Anyone? The silence from free-willers (to whom the questions are addressed) on these two questions is deafening. If you surrender and admit that this passage does nothing to support free-will, then please refrain from using it in future arguments. If you do not intend to surrender the use of this passage, then I think it is extremely important to answer these two questions.
     
    #3 npetreley, May 14, 2007
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  4. AAA

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    It seems to me that the free willers do not understand the soverignty of GOD and thus their doctrine of GRACE is in error....

    God saves by GRACE and HE saves men without any help of men trying to EARN their salvation...

    Source: The BIBLE......

    Eph. 2:8-9, Titus 3:5, the whole books of GALATIONS and Romans and etc.....
     
  5. npetreley

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    We know that, but since I've seen this passage used so often to "prove" free will, I would love to hear their answers to these questions.

    In short, I would like accomplish what this passage is meant to accomplish. (sly grin)
     
  6. DQuixote

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    Sometimes a reply isn't necessary.

    Moving heaven and earth isn't necessary when the scripture is 1) OT, 2) quite clear in context, and 3) not applicable to "free will" or "unfree will" or any other kind of will.

    I suppose it might work as a strawman for some who are babes in Christ.
     
  7. npetreley

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    LOL - nice attempt at dodging in order to excuse the silence. But this passage HAS been used in support of free will. You know it, and I know it, and a simple search would surely turn up many arguments in favor of free will using this passage.

    So - is it expecting too much to ask the free-willers to answer these two simple questions? After all, they're the ones who brought up the passage in favor of free-will in the first place. I challenge them to support it in the face of these two simple questions.

    1. Why did God call heaven and earth as witnesses AGAINST them?

    2. Can you name one person other than Jesus who followed all the instructions necessary to choose life? It says "here are the instructions, they're near you, they're easy, just choose", so did anyone actually do it?
     
  8. windcatcher

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    The title of this thread does not direct one to what doctrine the poster is questioning: And imo, the tone of the poster appears more argumentative than of genuine interest in discussion.:BangHead:


    Quoting Scripture is nice but why not include Chapters and verse, if it is the focus of discussion?

    Also, beware of generalization: Just because someone has used that passage in discussion with you does not mean it is the standard text which others with similar position would cite: It would be more meaningful to have the context, reference, or link to the exhibit: However, without some knowledge of what you're asking... the witness is apt to be reluctant. (meant tongue in cheek):laugh:


    Peace!
     
  9. npetreley

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    I said it was Deuteronomy. Those who have used this passage (the people I'm addressing) are sure to know where to find it. But for your benefit, it's Deuteronomy 30. The verse numbers are in my quote. I really thought that was unnecessary, however, because this is one of the most-used passages in defense of free-will.

    I'm guessing free-willers are reluctant to answer simply because they have no case. If they have no case, they should stop quoting the passage. If they think they have a case, then they should really give the questions a shot. But to remain silent on such an oft-used passage is to admit defeat (that is to say, they know they never should have quoted this passage in defense of free will) without a struggle.
     
    #9 npetreley, May 14, 2007
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  10. webdog

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    It seems you don't understand the free will position, as I agree with everything you have said.
     
  11. npetreley

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    Then, please, webdog. Enlighten us with your answers to my questions.
     
  12. Allan

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    I'll bite. :wavey:

    The heavens and earth being witnesses against them, does not mean they have a negative testimony agaist Israel but that they (the heavens and earth - All of Creation itself) will testify or be God witness of the Israelites choice so they can't say didn't choose or know there was a choice. In the mouth of two or three witnesses a thing is established - 1. Heavens 2. Earth 3. God Himself

    God says they have a choice of life or death Literally it is to whom they will serve, and creation is Gods witness against them in what ever choice they make.
     
  13. npetreley

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    Finally! Someone brave enough to tackle at least one question!

    Technically, it doesn't say "choose whom you will serve", it says more than that. It says your choice is to obey the LORD your God and keep his commands and decrees written in this Book of the Law. That's what is required to "choose life". Read it for yourself:

    Then God goes on to say that what He is commanding is easy, or at least not too difficult. It's not out of reach. In fact, it's right inside you, in your mouth and heart.

    So you should have no problem at all answering the second question:

    Can you name a single person other than Jesus who followed all these instructions, who obeyed the LORD our God and kept his commands and decrees that are written in this Book of the Law and turned to the LORD our God with their heart and with all their soul such that they chose life? C'mon, I'm only asking for the name of one person.
     
  14. npetreley

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    Oh, c'mon people. Just one name! It would be really cool if you could provide one. You have no idea how many arguments one name would settle. It would even solve the problem of whether or not limited atonement is true, once and for all!
     
  15. skypair

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    npeterely,

    The answer you are looking for in right in vs 10.

    God says "keep My commandments but TURN TO ME!"

    See, He doesn't say "these commandments" -- He says "this commandment!" This commandment is "turn unto the Lord thy God..." That IS easy. And God is calling for all Israel (here) to do so because they CAN.

    Doesn't that also simplify the understanding that the "commandment" is easy but the "commandments" aren't?

    skypair
     
    #15 skypair, May 15, 2007
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  16. npetreley

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    What part of "and" do you have trouble understanding?

    Even better, in context:

    Now, back to the question: Can you name one person besides Jesus who has done this?
     
    #16 npetreley, May 15, 2007
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  17. npetreley

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    I can't believe free-willers are having so much trouble with these two simple questions.

    Here's a hint for those of you who are still struggling with the first question. Back up to the beginning of Deuteronomy 30. Note how it's not "if" but "when", and then read what happens.

    Okay, I'll even give you another hint. Romans 3.

    EDIT: Fixed the reference to Deut 31, should have been 30.
     
    #17 npetreley, May 15, 2007
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  18. Helen

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    Can't speak for the others here, but as for me, I won't get involved because I am sick of the mocking and nasty attitudes of the Calvinists around here. It seems to be endemic with the theology. That should tell others enough.

    If the Bible says "choose" then a choice is actually available. That's pretty simple.
     
  19. npetreley

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    I agree with you that a choice is available. It's a shame you're not courageous enough to actually answer the questions, though.
     
  20. skypair

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    npeterely,

    Just trying to help, npet. You claim to not understand -- I'm giving you the answer. The point would be that one can execute all 3 things that are divided by "and." Obviously, the first 2 not perfectly but to some extent, but when one "turns to the Lord with all your heart and soul," that's a one-time deal.

    So, yeah --- EVERY saint has done all 3 at one time or another. It's like Jesus said, "My burden is light." If you do all these, life will be easier. :smilewinkgrin: Actually, we do the first 2 "in Christ" after we believe (should I marvel that you don't know this)??

    skypair
     
    #20 skypair, May 15, 2007
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