Wives should submit to their husbands????

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Bunyon, Oct 17, 2005.

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Wives should submit to their husbands????

  1. Wives should submit biblically to their husbands.

    92.9%
  2. It should be 50/50

    7.1%
  3. The spouse with the best leadership skills should lead.

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  1. Bunyon

    Bunyon
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    I wanted to get a overall opinion on how today's Christians feel about this traditional Christian teaching, so I placed it here in the political section.
     
  2. Bunyon

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    On the first pass it was 100% that wives should submit to their husbands in a biblical manner. And of course the husbands should lead in a biblical manner.
     
  3. Phillip

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    Let's not leave this out of context, as Bunyon point out, the Bible doesn't leave it there. The husband is supposed to RESPECT the wife, as Jesus does the church. There are two sides to this issue and one without the other sounds a bit, ahhh, how should I say it? ....Islamic?
     
  4. Ed Edwards

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    I'm still looking for that Bible verse that says:
    Men - Lord it over your woman!

    I think it comes right after:

    Early to bed and early to rise;
    Makes a man healthy, wealthy, and
    wise.
     
  5. Magnetic Poles

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    If I submit a report, I offer it. When a person submits to their spouse, they offer themselves as a partner. This has nothing to do with who is the boss of anyone.
     
  6. Bunyon

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    "I'm still looking for that Bible verse that says:
    Men - Lord it over your woman!"-------------------------------------------------------------------

    I am not sure where you are comming from on that Ed. who suggested anything about men lording it over their wives?

    M-poles, I don't think the Bible makes husbands dicators, but it does carry with it the idea of headship and leadership dose it not? But after that comment you made about men messing everything up, I am not sure if you can be objective about this. But you are right if the wife does not offer herslef the husband should not force the issue. It has to be voluntary in obedience to her Lord.
     
  7. PamelaK

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    Ephesians 5:25,33 (KJV)

    25: Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church , and gave himself for it;

    33: Nevertheless let everyone of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.
     
  8. Rachel

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    Ephesians chapter 5 is one place that has great instruction for spouses.

    Also, it is so much easier for a wife to submit to her husband if he cherishes her. If a husband is treating his wife the way Eph.'s says to then she will do just about anything for him. [​IMG]


    Eph 5:21 Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.
     
  9. El_Guero

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    Simply put ...

    A private submits to the authority of the leaders over him (her). The 'authority' is responsible to follow his (her) orders ...

    When it is smoothly done, there is no hickup ...

    ... it is when we start trying to change the laws and make it about who wins instead of loving each other and submiting to the law of God that we start having troubles ...
     
  10. Johnv

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    Should wives should submit biblically to their husbands? Yes, absolutely. The key word here is biblically. That means:

    A husband has no authority to command anything of his spouse.

    A wife has an obligation to allow the husband to spiritually lead the family.

    Also, the husband has the obligation to love his wife as Christ loved the church. Both the husband and wife have a responsibility to submit to each other as to the Lord, and to love each other as Christ loves them.

    A common problem in marriage is that wives don't know how to scripturally submit, it's that husbands don't know how to scripturally lead. "Do what I tell you to" is not biblical headship.
     
  11. Bunyon

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    "A husband has no authority to command anything of his spouse."----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    A person in authority is allowed to give commands even if done nicely. Did you mean to say "demand".
     
  12. Johnv

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    The husband's scriptural authority is limited to spiritual authority. If a husband tells his wife she must jump around the house on one leg and sing yankee doodle, is she scripturally obligated to do so?
    No, I meant "command", but "demand" fits as well.

    MP said it best: When a person submits to their spouse, they offer themselves as a partner. This has nothing to do with who is the boss of anyone. As for me, my wife is my partner. We are one flesh. There is not above/below or "over/under" in a marital covenant. In fact, the scriptural model of marital authority is the following:

    Christ
    ||
    ||
    ||
    ||
    V
    Husband &lt;===== Wife

    Note that the wife still has the obligation to obey Christ, but submits to her husband's leadership in spiritual matters. The husband does not stand between his wife and her Lord.

    The following is NOT a biblical model:

    Christ
    ||
    ||
    ||
    ||
    V
    Husband
    ||
    ||
    ||
    ||
    V
    Wife

    Note here that the Husband stands in the way of Christ and the wife. By doing this, the husband puts himself in an unscriptural position, attempting to replace Christ with himself. This is what happens when scriptural authority is confused with a "command-and-obey" model.

    [ October 21, 2005, 05:02 PM: Message edited by: Johnv ]
     
  13. Bunyon

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    If you want to take "command" as always being an unthinking authority. You seem to be over reacting to the word. But one can command without yelling and demanding and being unscriptural. For instance, If a gang of thugs are breaking into your house and you needed to deal with the situation you would probably be commanding and not negotiating or voting on what should be done. I will bark out commands in such a situation and expect my commands to be followed without hesitation. Of course the times when a husband would have to command would be rare, but to say he can't ever command is to take away his autority. It sounds like you are trying to say he is in authority, yet he has no right to use it. Where does it say his authority is limited to spiritual matters?

    "The husband's scriptural authority is limited to spiritual authority. If a husband tells his wife she must jump around the house on one leg and sing yankee doodle, is she scripturally obligated to do so?"------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I think she would be obligated to call the mental institution and start commitment procedures on her husband for her husband's sake.
     
  14. Johnv

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    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  15. Johnv

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    I'm not overreacting. It's not a part of scriptural headship.

    Commandng is not part of a husband's spiritual headship, do there never a need for him to "command" his wife.

    If my wife ever breaks into my house witha gang of thugs, you will have a point.

    Spiritual authority does not imply commanding. It implies leading. Big difference. Huge difference. Gi-normous difference.

    Here's the problem. The scriptural call to women is to submit. There is no scriptural call to men on what to do with that submission. None. The typical problem in a marriage is not that women aren't submitting, but that men are "expecting" something from their wives' submission (you're supposed to submit, therefore you must do...). Husbands are not ever given authority to expect sumbission. It's an instruction to the women and women only. The men need to stop trying to give instruction in the matter, and need to start being obedient to their own scriptural call.

    The context of the verse in the whole of the chater is that of a spiritual nature.
     
  16. Bunyon

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    "Spiritual authority does not imply commanding. It implies leading. Big difference. Huge difference. Gi-normous difference."---------------------------------------------------------------

    Well if you have ever taken a leadership course you would no that their are three types of leadership. Authoritarian, democratic, and Lazzie fair. Leadership is knowing which one to use in a given situation. A good leader will use them all at one point or another. Although it may be extreemly rare, it may be necessary for a husband to command his wife at some point. I have no Idea what you are talking about your wife breaking into your house with thugs. What if your wife wants to take a loan from loan sharks? What will you do if she insist? "OH please hunny bunny, they might break our legs if we can't pay". You either have authority or you don't. Your wife either submits or she dosn't. If my wife ever comes home with money from a loan shark, she well her a command from me, she does not have to listen, but if she has submitted she will. But I am glad I have not found it necessary to issue a command, because she listens to requests, and we never find ourselves in exegent circumstancs.

    Now deal with the nature of our relationships as it was stated by God in Eden after the fall. Have you reversed God's declaration?
     
  17. Johnv

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    Yes I have, as demonstrated by the fact that I can spell "laissez faire" [​IMG] But I don't base spiritual roles on modern definitions.
    Not sure what you're saying here. Chapter? Verse? I can find nothing in the OT that counters what I've posted here.

    Bottom line: The call to submit is directed to the wife only, and no authority is given to the husband to enforce it. Yet it is most often men who believe that this call gives them some kind of dominance over their wives, as though scripture instructs husbands to enforce this calling upon women. It does not.

    A husband should be true to his calling, and not be preoccupied with his wife's calling.
     
  18. Bunyon

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    The husband is called to lead and you calim to be able to spell Laissez faire, so you should know that a leader will have to use all forms of leadership at some point. A command does not force a person to obey. A command simply assumes authority. You are over reacting to the word. No one has said that a husband should force his wife to do anything, in fact it has been explicitly stated that her submission has to be voluntary and to her Lord. So either you have not read the whole thread or you are arguing with yourself.

    "Your desire will be for you husband, and he will rule over you" gen 3

    The serpant has to crawl on the ground, the man has to plow a feild of thorns for his food, and the wife has to be ruled by her husband. This was neccesitated by the fall. This is why the husband is in charge. The new testament tells us how to do it properly, but it does not change these declarations of God. It is the husbands duty to lead his wife, if she refuses to be lead it is on her, she will answer for it. But if the husband refuses to lead his family, he will answer for it.

    PS I knew I was not spelling Laissez faire right, but I did not feel the need or have the time to look it up. But you just want to be elementary don't you.
     
  19. Johnv

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    The husband is called to be the spiritual head. Spiritual headship involves leading by example. No where in scripture can I find any instructions given to husbands demand obedience as part of this spiritual headship. Your dissertation on varying methods of leadership is immaterial. Leadership is not the issue here. Spiritual headship is.

    If the husband commands, and the wife is not obliged to comply, then if she does not comply, is she in violation of her call to submit? Many will say "yes", thus disproving your point. Sorry, but "command" implies requiring someone to follow your orders. I fail to see how you can excuse this as appropriate husbandly behavior.

    That is directed towards the wife alone, and it's a statement of result. It is not a call or directive for wives to be under their husbands' rule. More importantly, since it's directed towards wives, it is not a call upon men to rule their wives. Implying otherwise is nothign short of a perverting and twisting scripture.

    No where does the NT direct husbands to rule. It only instructs wives to submit, and there they are only to submit as to the Lord. This instruction is to wives only. There is no instruction in the NT for husbands to require submit to them.
    I was making a lighthearted comment. I did not mean to impune your ability to spell. Sorry if it came out wrong.
     
  20. Bunyon

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    I really have now Idea what these circles are that you are talking in. Either the wife does or she doesn't submit. Either the man leads or he doesn't. Why don't we just make this simple. Do you agree with answer 1,2, or 3.

    If thugs are breaking into my house, I will command my wife to take the kids to safety while I try to deal with it. If she chooses to disobey the command, I guess there is not alot I can do about it. But I will still exercise the appropriate form of leadership for that situation and that is all I am responsibley for. My point is you can't say the husband is the head and than take away his leadership options, even the ones he rarley uses, like authoritarian. When I was in the Army, I always had the ability to disobey a command. A command does not force anything, it simply assumes authority. Either God has given the husband the authority to be head of his household or he has not.
     

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