Women In Authority

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by mmetts, Jul 31, 2007.

  1. mmetts

    mmetts
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    http://www.bible.com/bibleanswers_result.php?id=141

    I've been under some duress lately, from a co-worker (female) who is using the passage of information in the link above, by an author Betty Miller, to explain how woman can be ministers in a Church.

    She is very persistent, and I do respect her, but simply put she is wrong.

    Here is Betty's personal message following the article which I found disturbing (the part in italics):
    Here was some of my email correspondence to my office friend,
    Thoughts???:1_grouphug:
     
  2. mmetts

    mmetts
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    Further, I've heard a lot about this teaching, which is included in the passage by Betty Miller:
    Does anyone else feel like this is wrong?

    Betty Miller also explains how 1st Timothy 2:12 is wrong (rather poorly):
    This is all that she offers in regard to the verse, so this is her entire context. I am greatly interested in a scriptural, Baptist, POV on this whole doctrine.
     
  3. Mr.M

    Mr.M
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    Why are you under duress because of her erring opinion. She is wrong. Okay, so what is new? Many people are wrong on many occasions, does it always give you this much duress? It shouldn't. I am not trying to speak down to you, by the way, just frankly because sometimes that works better than someone agreeing with you and then telling you to go back in there and fight. Don't.

    She has her opinion, you have yours, she isn't budging, neither are you. It obviously does not pertain to work, so stop already. You are hitting your head on a brick wall. Simply state your opinion and why and if she isn't interested in the truth then fine, she is not open to being taught.

    It is clear the couple have gone to great lengths to construct a rationalization for what is clearly forbidden in Scripture. You aren't going to get her to come around and say, "Oh okay, I see, you're right, I am wrong, I will now abandon every thing I have based my life on so far". It happens but so rarely that you are lucky to meet one in a lifetime that has done that regarding something in their Christian life. You have spoken, she has been given the truth, she probably already KNEW the truth but her interests are not the Lord's and His truth but some man-made ministry based on self-deception...do really think you are going to get somewhere with her?

    Time to leave it be. If she brings it up again she obviously is free to speak, you can't control her tongue but you can take away her weapon for arguing which is your tongue and not use it other than to say, "Betty, we've discussed this and you know I don't agree with you. I would be glad to talk about something else but not that, okay?" And then change the topic to something you both agree upon. Or learn to listen without having to always demonstrate whether you agree or not, just listen.

    P.S. I went back and edited this post after posting it and coming back a few minutes later and reading it. Sheesh, I ought to edit more often, it was awful.
     
    #3 Mr.M, Jul 31, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 31, 2007
  4. menageriekeeper

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    I think the easiest answer is that the Bible gives specific requirements for what type of man is to be considered qualified to pastor (different than preaching) but there are no equivalent qualifications given for women to do the same job (of pastoring). You can't build a doctrine from no scripture.

    I actually agree that the Corinthians scriptures refer to worship services, but that doesn't mean that women should be pastoring.

    Women have their own role in the church and that is to serve/teach other women. This I believe is borne out by consideration of more that just a few specific scriptures listed.

    Btw, the word usurp means more than just to be over a man. This is encarta's definition:



    As you can see the word usurp indicates something more than just a woman teaching or preaching, but taking authority where authority already exists.

    LOL, I think Mr. M has a better solution for you!
     
  5. tinytim

    tinytim
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    Agree here too..
    Just tell her you don't agree and let it go...

    The strongest people are the silent ones!
     
  6. J.D.

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    When people think that any notion that enters their head is the Lord speaking to them, you have no chance against them. Who are you to argue with God?

    Pray for her and plant seeds of truth as you have opportunity.
     
  7. Bro. Williams

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    This is also proven true with something else...
     
  8. Dale-c

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    I agree and I would add that a strong argument could be made that there is no direct authority of the pastor over the women in the church.
    Since the women in the church are subject only to their own husbands, a pastor who tries to exercise any authority directly over another mans wife is just such a usurper.
     
  9. Dale-c

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    As far as the original post, I am not going to tell you what to do either way.
    If she brings it up, you are certainly free to defend the Biblical position with her.
    If she leaves it alone, I don't see any obligation you have to bring it up to her, but I would not fault you if you did.

    So, it is really a case of what is wise, not really a black and white right and wrong( the methods, not the issue of course)
     
  10. mmetts

    mmetts
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    I'll pray. Thanks for all the kind words everyone.
     
  11. mmetts

    mmetts
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    I did want to clarify also, that Betty Miller is not my friend, she is the Pastor/Minister that wrote the article that my co-worker friend is refering too.
     
  12. trainbrainmommy

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    I always refer to the verses that require that a (married) pastor be the husband of one wife. Kinda hard for a woman to fill that blank. :smilewinkgrin:
     
  13. mmetts

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    Most certainly agreed! I was reading an article this morning in the SBTC's Southern Baptist Texan, and it was talking about women in ministry for other roles of leadership. Does the Word prohibit women just from being pastors or does it prohibit all positions of authority over a man? Of course I plan to study the Bible for myself to find out, but I'm still working my way through Grudem's Systematic Theology and daily OT readings.

    When my wife and I got married we had a wonderful counselor, and now good friend of ours (we even call her Mom sometimes), help us to the day of our vows. However, I had strong personal convictions about a woman ministering our wedding ceremony. We brought in a good pastor for this, but still had our marriage counselor/minister help him.
     
  14. npetreley

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    You still won't see people agree on what this means.
     
  15. Analgesic

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    If you enjoy Grudem, you absolutely must pickup his Evangelical Feminism & Biblical Truth. While I disagree with some of his conclusions, the book is a superb introduction to any thorough Biblical study.
     
  16. Jimmy C

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    There is an excellent post by Emily Hunter McGowin over on SBC Outpost dealing with the greek word authority - the comment stream is up over 100 - as expected there are a few different opinions, but the debate is very respectful

    I have attached the link

    http://sbcoutpost.com/who-should-“have-authority-over-a-man”/

    My personal belief is that women as senior pastors are not for me, beyond that I have had great women sunday school teachers, youth ministers (for both boys and girls, education ministers etc
     
  17. mmetts

    mmetts
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    Thank you for the book. I do enjoy Grudem, he is safe. Sounds like it would be a great read. I'll put it on the to do list.
     
  18. mmetts

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    One conviction I do have on the issue is Ephesians 5. The male/female relationship is a representation of Christ and the Church.
     
  19. go2church

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    I agree with Betty and think you are the one who is wrong. But I don't have any duress about it move on there are bigger fish to fry.
     
  20. mmetts

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    Go2Church, I applaude - :applause: - your healthy and courageous effort to be included in the ongoing intellectual work of this thread. Can you explain why you agree with Betty Miller's opinion on "Women in Authority"? Otherwise, I might tend to think you just came here to be rude, which I'm sure you didn't.
     

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