Women in Ministry...a 3rd position:

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by 12strings, Jan 30, 2013.

  1. 12strings

    12strings
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2004
    Messages:
    2,743
    Likes Received:
    0
    This is an interesting article from Gateway Church in Texas:

    http://gatewaypeople.com/sites/all/files/pdf/position_papers/Role of Women in Ministry.pdf

    Here are their summary statements:

    I thought this was interesting...In practice, this church (which is very large, well over 50 pastors, possibly 75+) has many female associate pastors...but no female senior pastors or Elders)

    It seems they separate the office of pastor (shepherd) from the office of Elder/overseer.


    NOTE 1: I'm not saying I agree with this position, just that I found it interesting and one that I have not seen anywhere else.

    NOTE 2: I'm sure some of you have opinions on their pastor Robert Morris, but let's try to stay on topic.
     
  2. mont974x4

    mont974x4
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2012
    Messages:
    2,565
    Likes Received:
    1
    These days I am not surprised by the lengths people go to in order to wedge their agenda into these situations. Case in point, women cannot be pastor's so we call them associate pastors.
     
  3. annsni

    annsni
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    May 30, 2006
    Messages:
    20,198
    Likes Received:
    376
    See, I would definitely have a problem with calling a woman a pastor since it does not match up with the qualifications in Scripture. I would bet that in our church, some of our women might be considered pastors in that church but we will never call them pastors because they are not. It doesn't mean that women don't have a great role in the church - and personally, I believe without women, churches as we know them today would fall apart - but it doesn't mean that they should fill roles that contradict Scripture.
     
  4. 12strings

    12strings
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2004
    Messages:
    2,743
    Likes Received:
    0
    But in the primary scriptural passages giving qualifications in timothy & Titus, the words used are biship/overseer & Elder (presbuteros)...

    In fact, The word "poimenas" (pastor/shepherd) only refers to a title ONCE in the N.T., Ephesians 4:11. (God gave several types of people: Shepherd is one)...the other times it is either referring to Jesus himself, or referring to actual sheep herders.

    The only other thing close uses it as a verb in 1 Peter 5:2 - Shepherd the flock of God that is among you, exercising oversight, not under compulsion, but willingly, as God would have you;2 not for shameful gain, but eagerly;
    ...so here it seems shepherding ONE OF the activities that Elders DO.

    That's not a lot to go on if we are trying to prove that pastors=Elders/overseers.

    It seems Gateway is saying that both women and men may "shepherd" other people, but that only men may "oversee", or govern the church.
     
  5. Thomas Helwys

    Thomas Helwys
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2013
    Messages:
    1,892
    Likes Received:
    0
    It is interesting, and I can see the justification for it scripturally. Some of the breakaway Anglican groups have a similar philosophy.

    Now for those who think that the only proper place for a woman is walking in her husband's shadow, or any man's shadow, in the church or outside it, this will never be acceptable. Their only acceptable position is the woman's complete subjugation.

    Thanks for bringing it to our attention.
     
  6. annsni

    annsni
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    May 30, 2006
    Messages:
    20,198
    Likes Received:
    376
    I don't believe that is the position of anyone on this board.
     
  7. 12strings

    12strings
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2004
    Messages:
    2,743
    Likes Received:
    0
    I don't think that is the position of anyone on this board...or in fact any Christian person I have ever met.

    (what, someone already said this?)
     
  8. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    17,134
    Likes Received:
    52
    Agree that pastors/Elders, from the biblical mandate, were ALL men!

    Question of spiritual headship/authority here...
     
  9. go2church

    go2church
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2002
    Messages:
    4,304
    Likes Received:
    6
    Let women serve as they are led by the Spirit and affirmed by the church.
     
  10. 12strings

    12strings
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2004
    Messages:
    2,743
    Likes Received:
    0
    So are you saying we should leave the bible out of it?

    ...and if so, what other issues should this procedure apply to?
     
  11. Bronconagurski

    Bronconagurski
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2011
    Messages:
    790
    Likes Received:
    0
    T.W., I must vigorously object to your assertion below:

    you wrote: "Now for those who think that the only proper place for a woman is walking in her husband's shadow, or any man's shadow, in the church or outside it, this will never be acceptable. Their only acceptable position is the woman's complete subjugation."

    See, that is just wrong as it does not go far enough. Sometimes our shadow is in front of us when we walk, and that will not do. And you forgot that we only want them barefoot and pregnant and in the kitchen. :)

    Seriously, man, do you believe what you just wrote? That may be your experience, but not mine over 3 decades of belonging to Independent Baptist Churches. Elder, Pastor, Bishop, Shepherd are all names for the Pastor of a church. You have no scriptural evidence that Jesus or the Apostles approved of a women teaching men, or preaching, yet you put this ad hominem attack out there because your strawman burnt up, no offense. I mean, since we are being frank here. That said, your church has a right to do whatever they want and we all will stand before the judgement seat of Christ and then we will all see what is what. Jesus was a champion for the downtrodden, and that is made very clear in Luke. Yet we do not find anywhere it is ok for women to teach men scripturally. Neither does Paul, except when he says that Timothy's grandmother taught him growing up. There are no guidelines for the character of women preachers or deacons, yet their are guidelines for their wives. How much plainer can you get?
     
    #11 Bronconagurski, Jan 31, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 31, 2013
  12. Jerome

    Jerome
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2006
    Messages:
    5,635
    Likes Received:
    45
    Huh?

    Charles Spurgeon preaching from Romans 16 (v. 3 "Priscilla and Aquila"):

    "I should not wonder but he put them in order according to quality rather than according to the rule of sex. He named Priscilla, first, because she was first in energy of character and attainments in Divine Grace. There is a precedence which, in Christ, is due to the woman when she becomes the leader in devotion and manifests the stronger mind in the things of God. It is well when Nature and Grace both authorize our saying, 'Aquila and Priscilla,' but it is not amiss when Grace outruns Nature and we hear of, 'Priscilla and Aquila.'"
     
  13. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2010
    Messages:
    13,381
    Likes Received:
    728
    Hey Jerome,
    How many woman deacons did CHS have at the metropolitan tabernacle?
     
  14. Jerome

    Jerome
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2006
    Messages:
    5,635
    Likes Received:
    45
    Spurgeon called Lavinia Bartlett his best deacon, even a pastor.

    Bio of Mrs. Bartlett in The Sword and the Trowel:

    http://books.google.com/books?id=a7gVAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA113

     
  15. go2church

    go2church
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2002
    Messages:
    4,304
    Likes Received:
    6
    Don't be dense, you're better then that, or are you?

    A faithful, godly women can determine what the Holy Spirit is leading her to do without permission from any man. The same Spirit that lives in me, a man lives in them, no difference.

    You want to use the various passages to confine women to certain roles while ignoring the other passages that do the exact opposite that's fine, your choice. But don't think you somehow love Jesus and the Bible more because you have made those choices. It's ignorant and unnecessarily divisive.
     
  16. 12strings

    12strings
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2004
    Messages:
    2,743
    Likes Received:
    0
    I apologize for my blunt reply, the sarcasm was unnecessary...however your initial reply seemed very dismissive of all biblical arguments, such that some could read whatever they are "led by the spirit" to do" to mean "whatever I feel like I desire to do." And there are obvious things in scripture that we would all say are not valid leadings from the spirit...(ei, "No Mr. Jones, I realize you feel you are led to be a pastor, but you have 7 wives, and we believe that disqualifies you.)

    God has put some measure of authority in churches to determine their structures...such that both men and women must submit to their church leaders/and/or the will of the church at large in certain areas.

    I'm saying those of us who are complimentarian in ministry roles are NOT ignoring the rest of scripture, and that we are not holding these views because of a low view of women, but because we are truly seeking to be faithful to scriptures as we understand them, and to suggest otherwise, or to suggest, as you have here, that we simply want to restrict the Holy Spirit's callings, is unnecessarily divisive.

    I don't think all egalitarians are simply disregarding scripture by holding their view, just as it is unfair for egalitarians to say we do the same.
     
  17. go2church

    go2church
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2002
    Messages:
    4,304
    Likes Received:
    6
    I guess what wound me up was that I would never suggest that you can make the Bible say whatever you want it to nor is there a even the hint that I have ever done so, yet that is immediately where you went. AA

    I will hold to my ignoring comment but with some explanation.

    Ignoring means to refuse to take notice of or acknowledge; disregard intentionally. The complimentary interpretation that women can only serve in gender specific roles seems to me to be ignoring (as defined) the other passages, some a few chapters away, where women are serving as deacons, preaching, teaching, etc. One set of passages becomes the norm while other passages diminished. This has been and continues to be my major issue with the complimentary interpretation. Also, the example of Jesus elevating, including, teaching and relying on women seems again to be completely ignored.

    Is it too strong a word? Can you suggest a more appropriate one?
     
  18. Bronconagurski

    Bronconagurski
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2011
    Messages:
    790
    Likes Received:
    0
    That kind of thinking is why there is such a schism in the church today. Everyone does what is right in their own eyes, then says God said it was ok. That's why we are being bombarded with the world in our churches. Gay pastors, gay marriage, women preachers, etc. We don't use various verses, we use the only verses that deal with pastors and deacons. Husband of one wife for both, no qualifications for women for either. But there are qualifications for the wives. Can it be any clearer?

    Jesus said if you love me, keep my commandments. Churches that are out of order have a problem with authority.

    Finally, don't think that because you flaunt God's order in the church that you have women's best interest at heart.
     
  19. annsni

    annsni
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    May 30, 2006
    Messages:
    20,198
    Likes Received:
    376
    The Bible says that women cannot be pastors, deacons or elders (depending on the definition of the terms you use). There is not one passage that "do the exact opposite".
     
  20. Bronconagurski

    Bronconagurski
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2011
    Messages:
    790
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ok, what's your point? Nowhere does that prove that there is an office of a deacon or pastor. Spurgeon is mortal like anyone of us, and he, me, and you could all be wrong on any given point. Scripture is the guide, and it specifically says the offices are for men.

    BTW, I was being facetious in the part you copied and pasted.
     

Share This Page

Loading...