Women in Ministry

Good, we should all listen to each other and accept truth where we hear and find it.

 

I will consider your points

I will consider your points prayerfully, but LOL, last time I looked I was married to CARL, not BOB, rofl!

 

cpntext

I believe, with all due respect, you are missing the context of this statement.

1Co 7:26 I suppose therefore that this is good for the present distress, I say, that it is good for a man so to be.

Something was going on at the time of Paul's writing...perhaps persecution?

318 anagkh anagke an-ang-kay’

from 303 and the base of 43; TDNT-1:344,55; n f

AV-necessity 7, must needs 3, distress 3, must of necessity 2, need + 2192 1, necessary 1, needful 1; 18

1) necessity, imposed either by the circumstances, or by law of duty regarding to one’s advantage, custom, argument
2) calamity, distress, straits

Has anyone else looked at this?

 

So that means that the scope of your being submitted even in a teaching role (dare I say debating role??) is limited to the relationship between husband and wife - between you and Carl.

As you appear to argue in your response - you are free to express your views - differ and dare I say "debate" with others outside of Marriage even though "the other person" might be a ...... a..... well you know ... a --- Man! :laugh:


And that was my point all along. :applause:

But if you were inclined to take the path of saying that you dare not instruct me or differ with me in a way that I can actually - read, hear or detect just because you are a woman (whereas I am of superior gender in the church of unequal saints) -- then we would at least see the extent to which you are willing to take your own argument.

(My wife and I raised two daughters so this subject came up a lot. I was typically arguing for the "submit submit" POV whenever we got into debates during worship about some doctrinal question. That did not fly - my heart just wasn't in that POV. I wanted them to think for themselves just as you are doing )

in Christ,

Bob

 

Still waiting for an answer...

Let me throw this out to those who believe women can be elders...if my wife is commanded to submit to my authority as the head of home, and she becomes an elder at my church...does she have to submit to me, or I to her (remembering that the elders are the spiritual "rulers" of the church, and the husband is the spiritual "ruler" at home).

 

...so you are advocating confusion, then. Does Scripture state one ceases to be an elder once they leave the four walls of the church building? Does the husband cease to be the husband when he steps into the church?

 

Webdog, this is a good one. :thumbs:

 

In the home the husband is the spiritual head of the home.

Your wife in that case would have been appointed a role in the church but her role in the home remains unchanged as does yours.

 

I'm not making much sense of this. In the home my wife would still be an elder, too. If I have spiritual issues, I should talk with my elder...who is my wife...but she's supposed to submit to me...but I need to submit to her...:BangHead:

What is wrong with "If the plain sense makes common sense, seek no other sense"? The Scripture states "the husband of one wife". Quite simple. The roles of husband to wife, and elder to flock are quite understandable and explained in Scripture.

 

I agree both husband and wives are to submit to each other in love...but when it comes to spiritual issues, Scripture is quite clear.

Don't spend too much

 

A Christian forum isn't a church

LOL Bob, I understood SOME of what you wrote.

It is important to remember that this is a public forum, NOT a church. The Scriptures which we are discussing pertain to conduct within an assembly.

 

Still seeing a lot of carnal reasoning :tear: .

 

1 Timothy 3 says the Bishop is to be the husband of one wife, not the wife of one husband.

The Bishop is essentially the same as an Elder or Pastor.

Anna in the temple = Luke 2
Woman at the well = John 4
Mary Magdalene and Mary = John 20
Four daughters of Philip = Acts 21

There are other instances, but that is a starter. Keep in mind that they were not pastors, they only ministered.

Deborah was first woman judge in the OT. Book of Judges. Keep in mind she was judge because Barak was weak and would not go as judge.

Rahab the harlot was used = the scarlet thread of redemption.

 

Exactly!

This is the point I was making about Deborah.....I just reread this morning in my Bible study the first half of Judges, and continued to be convicted that Deborah's being judge was reflective of Israel's spiritual state. I agree that in particular male leadership was lacking at that time and that Barak did not enjoy a full reward of defeating Sisera because of his lack of faith and courage.

There is a huge difference between being a bishop and other areas of service. Obviously, women can and have ministered in wonderful ways...prophetesses, supporting Christ financially, older women raising up younger women in the faith, raising and discipling children, washing the feet of the saints.....Scripture, however, forbids us to be elders/pastors/bishops.

Your sister in Christ,
Beth

 

Does this friend of yours really want to walk in truth? Or are they dead set in their mind and just trying to prove that women can do whatever they want because there is no verse that explicitly says "Women cannot be an elders"?

To undestand this takes an open mind. Yes thats right. Many times people who say that women are limited in the roles they can fill are called close minded, but I find that just the opposite is true. In todays society, someone who is willing to accept God's ways is very open minded.

Concerning your statement of wanting to "get a fresh start" I say that is the best thing I've read on this subject so far. I hope it is sincere.

I would say that you need to begin with your understanding of spheres of authority. We need to accept that there are God ordained structures designed by the creator. Most likely you accept this in principle but are not willing to see that it applies to the church. In addition, a person who has authority is not better or more important that a person who doesn't have that authority, they just have authority that others don't. I am not better or more important than my children, I just have authority over them.

Also, we need to know what authority is as well as what it isn't.

Websters 1828
AUTHOR'ITY, n. [L. auctoritas.]
1. Legal power, or a right to command or to act; as the authority of a prince over subjects, and of parents over children. Power; rule; sway.

This shows us that authority comes from another source. It is a legal right.

RIGHT, a. rite. [L. rectus, from the root of rego, properly to strain or stretch, whence straight.]
2. According to the law or will of God, or to the standard of truth and justice; as, to judge right.
The word rule has sadly taken on a negative connotation over the years because of the many poor rulers in history: Hitler, Nero, Robert Mugabe, Stalin... However, a ruler is what we use when we want to be precise in drawing a straight line or measuring. It is a good things when used properly. Other times it is abused such as when my 3 year old son goes after his older sisters with one.

RULE, n. [L. regula, from rego, to govern, that is, to stretch, strain or make straight.]
3. To manage; to conduct, in almost any manner.

In regards to men and women, God has given the "legal" right to rule home and church to the man. I were to say manage it may be more acceptable because of our understanding of the word according to our experiences. I think it is a good word for this topic.

Here it is important to distinguish the difference between the church and Israel and how Deborah could "judge" Israel. Also, if the person given authority is failing to lead, the source of the authority has the responsiblity to replace the leader with another.

MAN'AGE, v.t.
1. To conduct; to carry on; to direct the concerns of; as, to manage a farm; to manage the affairs of a family.

I think Paul makes it clear that he understood this was his role in the church.

Not for that we have dominion over your faith, but are helpers of your joy: for by faith ye stand. II Cor. 1:24

I will stop here, but I think it is also important to reconsider what we think "church" is. But, for the sake of time and space that may come later.

"For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding; That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God" Col 1:9-10

God bless.