Women in the pastorate and pulpit...

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Onlybygrace, May 11, 2009.

  1. Onlybygrace

    Onlybygrace
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2009
    Messages:
    247
    Likes Received:
    0
    I have noticed a trend in the charismatic church where there are more and more high profile female teachers and pastors. In fact they call both members of their pastoral couple by the title pastor.
    Quite a few years ago we had a lady who was the leader of our national baptist woman's work who then wanted to be elected as president overall.

    How do you guys feel about and view this issue of women in leadership and a general teaching position in the church?
     
  2. Mexdeaf

    Mexdeaf
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2005
    Messages:
    7,051
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ho, boy.... one open can of worms coming right up!!:laugh:
     
  3. annsni

    annsni
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    May 30, 2006
    Messages:
    20,198
    Likes Received:
    376
    From my reading of Scripture, women are not to be pastors nor in authority over men. They are to teach women and work in ministry with their husbands but I do not see any situation in Scripture where a woman was a pastor or was in authority over men in the church.
     
  4. SeekingTruth

    SeekingTruth
    Expand Collapse
    Member

    Joined:
    May 25, 2005
    Messages:
    514
    Likes Received:
    1
    'Nuf said.:thumbs:
     
  5. Crabtownboy

    Crabtownboy
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2008
    Messages:
    16,650
    Likes Received:
    158
    We've been over this ground before.

    As a Baptist and a believer in the Priesthood of the Believer ... and as I have seen far too many pastors with feet of clay I do not believe pastors have any authority over other Christians. To me this is a hold over from the Middle Ages.

    The best sermons I have heard in the last ten years have been from women preaching.

    Some of the best books I have read in the last five years have been by women pastors/professors/teahers ... sush as Barbara Brown Taylor.

    In Christ there is no Jew nor Greek, no male nor female.

    This is an issue where agreement will never be reached among Christians. Some Baptist Unions in Eastern Europe not only will not allow a woman to speak from the pulpit, on any topic, but will not allow a woman to sit on the platform where the pulpit is located ... other Baptist Unions in Europe allow women pastors.

    The important issue is not the gender of the person preaching, but that Christ is preached.
     
  6. preachinjesus

    preachinjesus
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member
    Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2004
    Messages:
    7,406
    Likes Received:
    99
    This doesn't have anything to do with gender roles in the Church. Notice the context man! ;) This has everything to do with salvation. Paul's point in the passage is clear, when it comes to salvation we all stand before the Cross equally.

    This passage has nothing to do with gender roles in the local church.
     
  7. preachinjesus

    preachinjesus
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member
    Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2004
    Messages:
    7,406
    Likes Received:
    99
    That said, while I do believe in male primacy in leadership I do not see a New Testament example for male exclusivity in leadership.

    I know I'm going to step away from (as usual) from the position of most around here. I have no problem with women as evangelists, speakers, writers, and associate ministers in the Church. Actually I believe the New Testament makes a compelling case that the early church (of the first century) had women leaders in most (if not all) locations.

    I do not believe the office of Senior Pastor is one which women are Scripturally permitted to occupy.

    As for authority...well I don't agree that it is all about guys.

    Well this should make for some fun today! :D
     
  8. Crabtownboy

    Crabtownboy
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2008
    Messages:
    16,650
    Likes Received:
    158
    Can a woman lead someone to salvation?
     
  9. preachinjesus

    preachinjesus
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member
    Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2004
    Messages:
    7,406
    Likes Received:
    99
    Of course but the text doesn't limit that. Nor does a discussion of gender roles. This text, the Galatians 3:28 passage you mentioned, is about how we stand before Christ and the Cross.

    Attempting to use this text and imposing an egalitarian read on the Scriptures is simply not good hermeneutics. Here is the immediate context:
    Galatians 3:15-4:7
    15 Brothers, I'm using a human illustration. No one sets aside even a human covenant that has been ratified, or makes additions to it. 16 Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say "and to seeds," as though referring to many, but and to your seed, referring to one, who is Christ. 17 And I say this: the law, which came 430 years later, does not revoke a covenant that was previously ratified by God, so as to cancel the promise. 18 For if the inheritance is from the law, it is no longer from the promise; but God granted it to Abraham through the promise.
    The Purpose of the Law
    19 Why the law then? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise was made would come. [The law] was ordered through angels by means of a mediator. 20 Now a mediator is not for just one person, but God is one. 21 Is the law therefore contrary to God's promises? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that was able to give life, then righteousness would certainly be by the law. 22 But the Scripture has imprisoned everything under sin's power, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. 23 Before this faith came, we were confined under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith was revealed. 24 The law, then, was our guardian until Christ, so that we could be justified by faith. 25 But since that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, 26 for you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
    Sons and Heirs
    27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is no Jew or Greek, slave or free, male or female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, heirs according to the promise.
    Chapter 4
    1 Now I say that as long as the heir is a child, he differs in no way from a slave, though he is the owner of everything. 2 Instead, he is under guardians and stewards until the time set by his father. 3 In the same way we also, when we were children, were in slavery under the elemental forces of the world. 4 But when the completion of the time came, God sent His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, 5 to redeem those under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons. 6 And because you are sons, God has sent the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, " Abba, Father!" 7 So you are no longer a slave, but a son; and if a son, then an heir through God.

    There is nothing in the this text that lends itself to even a hint at a disestablishment of gender roles in terms of our earthly gatherings (i.e. the Church.) This text has everything to do with salvation, not gender roles.

    So your question is a red herring. If you disagree please show me your interpretation, providing Scriptural evidences. Thanks:wavey:
     
  10. Crabtownboy

    Crabtownboy
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2008
    Messages:
    16,650
    Likes Received:
    158
    I suppose it is a matter of how we view God. I do not believe God is particularly concerned about a person's gender, but do they follow his leading. I believe God can lead any person to engineering, to law, to be a doctor, to be a teacher, and yes to be a minister of His word in a church or in the world.

    If you are a Christian, you are a minister. We all have out ministeries to the world, both within the church and without. To attempt to restrict a person who is following Christ and God's will is to sin, IMHO.

    As I said in another post, I do not believe pastors have authority over others. I do not believe any man/woman has authority over others. I consider this a hold over from the Middle Ages and before .. a mistake then and now.

    I do not really believe there is a clergy versus a laity. We are all either clergy or we are all laity. I am in agreement with Elton Trueblood, Carlyle Marney and the tenets of traditional Baptists on this one.
     
  11. preachinjesus

    preachinjesus
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member
    Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2004
    Messages:
    7,406
    Likes Received:
    99


    Uh, respectfully, I disagree. This is how we read Scripture. If you want to disagree with my read of the above passage please speak specifically to how Paul talks about roles in the New Testament in the above passage. Otherwise you're just dodging.



    I don't know anyone who disagrees with the above statement. I agree. Did you read my post? I will say that God doesn't call people to be something He hasn't designed them for. God never calls a man to be a wife, or give birth...



    This is a misunderstanding of Priesthood of the Believer. While we all have ministries and duties we are called and commissioned to accomplish there is a separtion between ecclesial roles and duties and what you are speaking of here. The New Testament is, imho, pretty clear about the differences in roles in the Church.



    I don't (at first glance) disagree with the authority thing. I've said more than enough here and elsewhere express my position. I would ask for a clarifying statement backed up with Scripture.

    That said, if you disagree with my position (which is pretty generous imho) particularly about the above passage please respond not with some conflagration of personal profundity but with a robust, honest engagement in the text.

    You have yet to show a Scriptural case for your position, other than arguing past the principle points.
     
  12. annsni

    annsni
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    May 30, 2006
    Messages:
    20,198
    Likes Received:
    376
    Will God lead someone to do something that is specifically forbidden in His Word?
     
  13. Shortandy

    Shortandy
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2008
    Messages:
    321
    Likes Received:
    0
    While I agree that the pastorate is not a place of authority it is still a position and a calling that is for a man not a woman. While God sees no race, ethicity or sex when it comes to saving a soul He does have a created order and calling when it comes to men and women.

    I understand that these teachings do not sit well in modern times due to the heavy influence of femminism, the truth is still the truth. God created men and woman to serve in different roles and Holy Scripture testifies to this.

    Father's can't be mothers and mothers can't be fathers can they? It is a differnt place and calling; one for male one for female.

    Adam was created first and Eve 2nd...something Paul appeals to in later writing.

    Adam was created from the dust of the earth but Eve was created from Adam. Again this shows a difference.

    Scripture says that women are the "weaker vessels." A difference I would say.

    Eve ate the fruit first yet is was Adam who was held responsible....for we learn through Paul that sin entered into the world through ADam...not Eve!

    Ephesians 5:22-6:4 shows the difference in men and women and their calling. Husband is the head and the wife is to sumit. Husband is to love and the wife is to respect. Man represents Christ and the woman the Church.

    Like it or not men and women are different in design, role and calling. Headship in the home belongs to a man so what in our right mind would ever lead us to assume that headship and leading in the church would be any different?
     
  14. Old Scholar

    Old Scholar
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    May 1, 2009
    Messages:
    18
    Likes Received:
    0
    Until women can figure out how to be the husband of one wife, they are to be excluded from holding the offices of Pastor and Deacon. These verses aren't open for any other interpretation—they seem quite clear.

    Women must not ursurp any authority over man in the church. Sure they can teach children and other women but not men.

    To deviate from Scripture in this case is no different than deviating from others and we are told not to do that.
     
  15. annsni

    annsni
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    May 30, 2006
    Messages:
    20,198
    Likes Received:
    376
    Totally agree ShortAndy. And this doesn't mean that women should just sit and not do anything in church.

    I've said it before and I'll say it again: our church staff is compromised by about 60% women and the church would crumble without them. They all do big and small jobs and are by no means just the lowly servant in the back room. We all have important roles. Just not teaching men or being in authority over men.
     
  16. Jerome

    Jerome
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2006
    Messages:
    5,632
    Likes Received:
    45
    "Of the second sort are . . . the prohibition of Paul, that women should not teach in the Church, and the like; . . . . these things . . . ought to be applied to the edification of the Church, with a variety suitable to the manners of each age and nation, therefore, as the benefit of the Church shall require, it will be right to change and abolish former regulations, and to institute new ones." ---John Calvin, Institutes, vol. 4, ch. 10, sec. 29-30
     
  17. tinytim

    tinytim
    Expand Collapse
    <img src =/tim2.jpg>

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2003
    Messages:
    11,250
    Likes Received:
    0

    Be Careful... Look at Iowa and Maine!!! :saint::tonofbricks:
     
  18. annsni

    annsni
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    May 30, 2006
    Messages:
    20,198
    Likes Received:
    376
    LOL - But would they be termed "husband"? According to the American Heritage Dictionary, a husband is "A man joined to a another person in marriage; a male spouse." So husband could never be a woman.
     
  19. Salty

    Salty
    Expand Collapse
    20,000 Posts Club
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2003
    Messages:
    22,130
    Likes Received:
    221

    Its a simple answer: The Political Correct Police will re-define the term husband as "a person who assumes the masculine duties of a relationship"

    don't be surprised! They have already done that with "he/she", flag persons, ect...

    Salty
     
    #19 Salty, May 11, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: May 11, 2009
  20. Onlybygrace

    Onlybygrace
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2009
    Messages:
    247
    Likes Received:
    0
    May I bring up an alternate point of view, I am not saying I am right I am just suggesting a different perspective. Maybe it is true that in God's economy men are supposed to be the leaders. But is it not also true that when men fail in their position God raises up a woman to do the job man has failed to do? We know from scripture, as in the in the case of Debra, a female judge in Israel, that it is not the norm but a rare occurence. Could it not be that the fact that we see so many women entering leadership in ministry is an indictment on men because it is proof that they are not performing their God-given function? And maybe the best way to prevent women from wanting to be leaders is to do such a good job of it that they find male leadership something so worthwhile submitting to that they don't feel the need to be leaders any more?
     

Share This Page

Loading...