Women in the pastorate and pulpit...

Women have a very important role in the church, just not those particular roles. Our church could not function without the work, support, and faithfulness of the women in our church. However, God has made it very clear in His word that some roles are for men, and some roles are for women.

I was in the WoF cult for many years when I was a new Christian and even then, I thought it was very odd that if a man was a pastor, then his wife must also be considered a pastor(ess).

Show me a church with a woman pastor and I'll show you a church that has serious doctrinal and practical problems in other areas, as well.

 

Yes. We have many women on our evangelism team and we have several women who are fine open air preachers, but we're talking specifically about offices within the church body here.

If that were true, then God wouldn't have specified one role for women and another for men.

Really? You believe God can contradict His word?

You understand that we're talking specifically about the pastorate and leadership roles in the church, right?

Then why does the Bible outline the role and necessity of pastors, preachers, teachers, elders, etc?

 

Hmm...Let's contrast and compare, shall we?

 

One of the reasons there are so many women in offices that some think they should not be is because the men have not been the spiritual leaders in their home or church. In some places, either a woman does the ministry or it does not get done. That is a sad example we men are setting. It seems to me there are tons of women who go to church, take the kids, and the husband never darkens the door. There is obviously no male spiritual leadership in a home such as that.

Praise the Lord for the moms that teach their kids spiritual values when the dad will not.

 

This is a good statement. But this should be viewed as the exception not the rule. The rule is male headship in home and church. What should be happening is accountability instead of apathy.

 

I agree 100%. If men were doing as they should, the problem would not exist.

 

What to do with the passages where Paul instructs women how to prophesy - 1 Corinthians 11:4-5?

 

Well this has been a fun topic to read and I thought I would jump in and cause a stir.

Warning! Danger! I will be called a liberal and I am ok with that.

This has been an issue that has been fought over for a long time. The unfortunate reality is the fact it is mainly a hermeneutical problem. Some interpret prophesying differently than preaching. I do not, in the NT prophesying involves preaching the word of God. There are four examples of women prophesying Miriam (Ex 15:20), Deborah (Judge 4:4), Huldah (2Kings 22:14), and Anna (Lk 2:36)

Jesus in his earthly ministry never limited women to a subordinate role in his kingdom work. The New Testament mentions several women whose roles could be interpreted as pastoral. They are Priscilla, Junia, Phoebe, Chloe, Lydia, Nymha, Euodia, and Syntyche. They were called co-workers in ministry. (emphasis co-workers) Jesus also called women to be the first proclaimers of his resurrection (Mt 28:5-8, Mk 16:1-8, Lk 24:1-10, Jn 20:11-18)

Ok now Paul. 1 Cor 14:34-35 can have different contextual interpretations. There are several possibilities. I will admit this can certainly rule out women in leadership to some, but not always. Consider the context Paul speaks of, Women were not allowed to participate in Jewish worship, making them lack knowledge about corporate worship. The context also mentions speaking in tongues. This new found freedom could have caused problems (14:33). Paul could be instructing them not to speak openly and interrup worship. W.A. Criswell claims Paul was actually cautioning womren not to speak in tongies in worship. (see citation) Paul cautions all Christians to be careful how they exercise their new found freedoms in Christ becaus the world may not understand the nature of some of their actions (6:12, 10:23, 32)

Citation: W.A. Criswell The Baptism, Filling and Gifts of the Holy Spirit Grand Rapids, Zondervan 1973

The issue with Husband of one wife, most scholars and I can get citations if you would like do not refer this as a restricting element concerning niether divorce, or sex, but restricting in a polygamy, a problem in that time. There are several passages that I could also mention but my post is long enough.

I would like to mention several modern day examples: Ann Graham Lotz, Barbara Brown Taylor, Beth Moore, and then there are the famous missionaries such as Lottie Moon, Annie Armstrong, and yes the great Catholic Mother Teresa.

This is a big fight over different interpretations of scripture. I interpret scripture to give women and men the ability to pastor and preach God's word. In the churches I serve they love it and we are flourishing. There are some churches that do not see it this way and limit the role, and they flourish as well. The good news is being Baptist allows each church to be different and make its own leadership decisions.


I just have one closing argument.

Who has ever went to Hell because a woman was behind a pulpit? This is much ado about nothing.

 

Not really. It is a fairly modern problem.

Again, no, it is an exegetical problem.

This is still true. Biblical complementarianism doesn't limit women to a subordinate role.

None of these women were in a pastoral role. There is no NT evidence for it. Where their roles are defined (such as Phoebe) they are not pastors.

It actually refers to character ... a one woman man.

Examples of what?

How would you know? Only God knows this. It may well be that there are some who did. Furthermore, this is a clear teaching of Scripture, and it is there not "much ado about nothing." The bottom line is Are we content to believe and practice the Scriptures as they stand or will we disobey them by allowing people to do things that God has forbidden.

It is abuse of women to allow them to disobey God by pastoring or having authority over men in the church. It is strange that those who claim to be champions of women's rights are the most guilty of this abuse. Who would encourage a woman to disobey God and incur the wrath of God for it?

 

I have yet to see a legitimate and reasonable argument for women in the pastorate. And the Pastorate is about more than just the pulpit.

 

Could you post just one? I'd be interested to see it.

This is an argument?

You, yourself, can't even answer this question. Nobody can. You're implying that the answer is no, but I can ask the same question about a man behind a pulpit, and that question is unanswerable as well.

 

I do not believe it is disobeying God.

I have yet to learn how to multi-quote so my statements are in bold. This is not to infer any anger or passion, just separation from Pastor Larry's quotes.

 

Wise words, Pastor Larry. Titus 2 and Proverbs 31 give many specifics for women to follow. Pastoring is not mentioned. In fact, God forbids it for women.

If we women would just follow Titus 2 and Proverbs 31 we'd be too busy, anyway, to become pastors!

 

I think the point of that is to say that all of church history was virtually unanimous on this until the women's movement. That is telling.

Yes, exegesis is explanation. It is not the same as interpretation, technically, though they are related. "Interpretation" becomes an excuse for unbelief and disobedience.

I have many coworkers who are fellows ministers who are ladies who are not pastors.

The other explanations can be valid, but they all fall short in different ways both positively and negatively.

I don't know that they are successful or not. I suppose it depends on what you mean by success. If by success you mean big crowds and numbers, they probably are successful. And Isaiah and Jeremiah weren't. If by success you mean obedience, then they would not seem to be successful.

Not entirely true. 1 thess 4 does appeal to the messenger. the qualifications for pastor appeal to the character of the messenger. So the messenger does matter.

Yes, but why is there debate about when God has clearly spoken? What you and I believe doesn't really matter.

But when Scripture says not to allow a woman to teach or have authority over man, and you allow that, you are not following Scripture.

But again, what you believe doesn't matter. God has spoken and he gave his reasons.

No problem, none here either. You quote the same way you bold using hte brackets but exchanging "b" for "quote".

 

Pastor Larry...

No, this is NOT a "clear" teaching in the scripture in the same way foundational teachings are. This is an area where the Romans 14 principle is applicable...

Evangelicals who believe women can be pastors, and in other positions of authority (even over men) are indeed believing and practicing as the scriptures teach...every bit as much so as you are.

Romans 14.

 

That is unfortunate. I bet there was more than just a woman being in the pastorate that led to this though.

Once again bolds are just separation, not anything else.