Women of polygamist retreat speak out

Discussion in '2008 Archive' started by The Scribe, Apr 15, 2008.

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  1. The Scribe

    The Scribe
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    Women of polygamist retreat speak out.


    Looks like the state did lie and continue to lie. They are in deplorable conditions, that are making them sick.

    The state doesn't want to help they want to take the children away.

    The caller is an bitter ex-member. Hmmm.
     
  2. rbell

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    keep in mind this is one side of the issue.

    Also keep in mind that these folks have been taught that no one outside the FLDS compound is to be trusted. Their leader, Warren Jeffs, was almost Jim Jones-like in his distrust of all "outsiders."
     
  3. The Scribe

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    Seems they do have the right idea. I don't trust many that are outside of Biblical beliefs. Especially the government. After reading the article the state has continually lied to them and they don't truly want to help the children they just want to take them away from their mothers.
     
    #3 The Scribe, Apr 15, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 15, 2008
  4. BaptistBarb

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    hearing the ladies side of things does make ya think
     
  5. go2church

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    Those being investigated by CPS don't get a warning, neither to drug dealers or bank robbers for that matter.

    Someone called, made an accusation and until they find out who it is it must be assumed it could be anyone

    They did move some/ most of the ladies and children.

    The state of Texas in particular doesn't want to take these children. Remember they have lived there for about five years. If they just wanted to raid the place a grab the kids, they could have done that a long time ago. Also Texas has a reputation for leaning very heavily for parental rights.

    Concerning the fact that it was a bitter ex-member...would you expect someone in a group like this to say anything different? They don't even trust their own to leave the compound to go grocery shopping
     
  6. billwald

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    The LDS deserves and needs a homeland more then does the Palestinians. I suggest that Utah submit a Declaration of Independence to Congress.
     
  7. donnA

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    The mothers would be the ones allowing them to be abused, so yeah, it makes sense to take them away.
    Bitter ex member, is there proof of that or it is a guess, or even false accusation?
    I think some here are pushing to support their way of life of multiply women, sex abuse of girls(making them marry older men). And we believe these people who prefer this lifestyle of mothers refusing to protect their children because they are a false religion.
    Thats really something.
     
  8. Revmitchell

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    The only instance I saw of deception was in regards to the separation form the parents. And certainly if they suspected abuse they did not want to give the parents an opportunity to coach the kids testimony. It was certainly appropriate.
     
  9. windcatcher

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    Personnally I feel conflicted regarding this whole thing:

    On the one hand, I believe children must be protected from abuse:
    But who determines abuse?
    To whom are children born?
    Aren't the parents the first responsible for their children, their provision, their protection, and their training?
    Upon whose values or what values do we base some of our judgements own?
    Does the Bible have a certain age of consent to marriage.... or rather doesn't it support the decision of parents to release a daughter for marriage?
    What does history have to say about marriage?

    Not having studied this institution in the context of history, I have no answers.... but I have some ideas, based upon family geneology and birth and marriage dates..... that 100 years ago, it was not that uncommon for a girl to marry as young as age 14 or 15, and that, often to a man as much as 10 years older...who had established that he was mature in self discipline, established with work habits, and brought a degree of stability in means; to assure that he had developed both patience and wisdom, solid in reputation and character: True, not all marriages took place with these considerations in mind... but the choice of release of a girl to marriage was a decision made by her father... or parents and not a decision of the state.

    When does 'childhood' end and what contributes to quality of life in childhood including who or what provides that environment?

    Actually, children used to participate in the economy of the home and farm and family from a very early age: I don't wish to make a case for child labor in industry.... but in the home, children typically had chores or duties which were their contribution to the running of home and farm. At the same time, they were expected to run and play with a certain amount of room for mischief..... and opportunity for correction by the parents... and development of character. Their innocence was protected by society, and in the home by the parents: But they weren't kept from the experience of life: Within the family, they saw death, when terminal illness visited: They might have heard their mother's crys, as another child was born: A corpse might have been in a simple wooden box....or laid out on a bed for visitation in the home until the grave was dug and the funeral held: While some might say that these are not 'quality of life' for a child.... aren't some of these more natural life developing experiences than those to which children are exposed to today:

    Society, today, is so different: It shelters children from the pain of new life to the exposure of loss and death, and judges the parents based upon what it considers as acceptible. But society establishes inflexible rules and suspends a child from school for taking a phone call from his father in Iraq on a cell phone during class....due to cell phone ban..... or a kid for smelling a tee shirt where a majic maker happened to dot, or the kid who draws a gun on paper, or writes with a pen with a guns' manufacting logo on it, or tosses a child's Bible in the trash. But, it (society) exposes children to chemical dependancies, pills are pushed in tv ads as a cure for any nuiscance symptom, scantily clad people appear on tv, at the beach, AND on our streets; their ears are exposed to vulgar language in school, movies, music, tv (sometimes), and on the street.... and sometimes the home...where such customs overflow. Sexual terms regarding organs, events, behavior and vulgarity are peppered throughout many 'entertainment' programs, some introduced to young ears at an early age by programs in the school, or older kids who have no regard for exposing the younger to their 'advanced sophistication'.

    I do not approve of polygamy: I don't approve of mistreatment of a child: I doubt that most children are equiped with the life experiences which makes life seem more precious, and marriage more permanent, and have a foundation of consistant spiritual development without the subverting influences of other public institutions, to began a new family or home at the age that many teens are entering into parenthood due to promiscuity. Is promiscuity alright but marriage wrong?

    I find myself thinking I see so many double standards enough to go around...indictiing society in its interference with parents:

    I think I see society in a double standard, that says it gives liberty to all..... but you must conform to its standard of openness and loose associations and behavior, rather than knit yourself together with those of like belief and lifestyle, to protect and support the values to which you hold for you and your family which mixing with society would loosen.

    I don't agree with cults.... but I do appreciate the rights of people to form a community which preserves the values and lifestyle consistant with their convictions.... such as the Amish. Regretfully, I see in my own community, so many neighbors and friends and myself,......we each regard each other as 'Christians' but as a community, we look so much like any other that there is no distinguishing our appearance... and sometimes our behavior or the content of our conversation.....from the world. Our kids go to public schools, meet with their friends who live cross town, are exposed to all the liberties available in our society without regard for family values. We can't protect them from exposure or the conflicts introduce to them at an early age from outside influences.
     
    #9 windcatcher, Apr 16, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 16, 2008
  10. go2church

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    I don't care if it did happene in the past, that doesn't make it right or better then today. They used to make hats with mercury, we've figured out things a bit since then.

    A 14,15 or 16 year old is a girl and should not be getting married and having children. Her body may be able to handle the stress of being pregnant, but emotionally she is not. I don't care how much she has helped her mother in the kitchen or with the other kids in the house. This doesn't even take into account the "forced to marry" factor in this whole equation!
     
  11. carpro

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    Makes me wonder what makes such women tick.

    Is this similar to why abused women stay with their abusing spouses?
     
  12. windcatcher

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    Really? Aren't some 'what is appropriate' judgements made in the context of the customs of the times.... Show me where there's an absolute regarding time to marry...... In todays 'custom' it is quite 'okay' for girls to get pregnant at ages 14 and 15 and have babies and keep them..... but we get upset if they marry? (I don't mean by 'okay' that I agree...only that we discourage abortion, we don't brand the girl as 'being loose', we support the decision for the child to raise her child if that's her choice, and often the 'father' of her child is absolved of any responsibility..... unless he's of age to be prosecuted for rape of a minor.) There is a lot more maturity and readiness for a youth who has shared responsibilities with family through out his childhood, that one who finds it suddenly thrust upon them because of their own irresponsibility and received no preparation. Emotional prepardness is based upon the integration of life's experiences....more so than age. Some environments such as a stable family life in a stable community make this more likely than other environments.

    Good points you make though.


    ----------------------------
    If you could judge my ancestors, you would find they and their children and their children's children were blessed! My great grandpa, was in his 20's, already a widower with children when he married my 16 y/o grandma who raised his children and gave him 3 of their own. I knew them both in 1954 when he died in his late nineties. Grandma lived into the early 60's and died in her 90's: In 1954 electricity reached out to the country and they had electric lights and a water pump..... but still great grandma could cook the best biscuits and eggs and bacon on her wood burning stove.... and the coffee was always the best! Grandpa was nursed through a bout of pneumonia in the front 'living' room.... and a visiting nurse came daily and rehung his i-v for fluids. Upon his death, family cleaned and bathed him and dressed him, returning him to his bed, until the plain box was brought in and he was carried out to his funeral. By the time I was 6y/o I'd already seen death and experienced life from the aspect of a child with 4 younger siblings.
     
  13. donnA

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    I was 16 when I married and had my first baby. But my marriage was by my choice. And nearly 28 yrs. later we're still married.
     
  14. The Scribe

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    Exactly. :thumbs:

    No one says much when they are pregnant in high school.
    But, don't let them marry. :confused: :rolleyes: The Bible says otherwise.

    If I could have been married at sixteen I would have.
     
  15. abcgrad94

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    Exactly. You weren't forced to marry a man 20 or 30 years your senior as part of "God's will."

    Maybe years ago teenagers had the maturity to marry young IF THEY WANTED TO. I seriously doubt that any 14 or 15-year old girls would chose to marry a dirty old man old enough to be their father or grandfather, the way these kids are, especially if that man has other wives.

    Remember, these nuts are followers of a man (Joseph Smith I believe) who married an 8 or 9 year old girl! Can we honestly expect the government to trust them with little children? I think not. Maybe the government is making a mistake, but at least they are erring on the side of caution!
     
  16. go2church

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    I was married when I was young and both my wife and I agree that we could have easily waited another 2 or 3 years and been far better off, without question. Because we didn't wait we put ourselves and our marriage through unnecessary struggles and we both wanted to be married I can't imagine being told at 14, 15 and perhaps even younger that I was going to be married, even if I didn't want to or didn't know the person.

    You talk of life experiences leading to a maturity in some that could enable them to ready. These girls for the most part never left the ranch! What kind of life experience is that?

    I am well aware that in many cultures getting married young is what happens but I am also aware that in most of those cultures women are treated as second class or worse citizens and viewed more as baby makers and free labor. That by any stretch of the imagination is not freely choosing.

    We deal with realities of bias, prejudice and the like, but I believe we must hold up the ideal when it comes to marriage. Two people freely choosing to spend the rest of their lives together mutually submitting to one another as unto the Lord. This situation is about as far from that as one could get.
     
  17. The Scribe

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    Children are even worse off in the "care" of the government.

    CIA and Satanism

    Conspiracy of Silence

    indybay.com
     
  18. donnA

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    I agree completely
     
  19. pinoybaptist

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    I have a couple of questions which may or may not be relevant to the subject. You decide.

    A Muslim who immigrates to the USA and who already has 3 wives, will he be allowed to petition all three wives and his children by them or will the US government separate him from two of the wives by allowing only one of the wives to immigrate as his lawful wedded wife ?

    Second question: Are US Muslims allowed the privileges of multiple wives that his religion allows him ?
     
  20. 4His_glory

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    That is just a bunch or ridiculous conspiracy theories. Please tell me you do not beleive that garbage.

    I agree that the best place of a child is in the home. But these woman are members of a cult with a history of abusing children. I have a hard time feeling any sympathy for them.
     
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