Women Pastors

Mr. Black, I am not translating preach from any Greek I trust my Authorized King James Bible and believe it to be the inerrant, infallible, God-breathed Word of God( not just parts of it or thoughts but all of it) and therefore I can stand alone on the Word of God and the teaching I have received out of it the Lord being my Helper and by His grace. I am not dependent on the Greek or a scholar but JUST the Bible. It teaches a woman is not to preach. Those daughters may have been and were if the Bible says so prophysing but it does not mean they were preaching Sir.

 

So CD, you acknowlege that it is allowable for a woman to speak in church under certain circumstances.

[ March 05, 2003, 12:50 AM: Message edited by: Johnv ]

 

Yes Johnv, very certain circumstances. I believe it is fine for a woman to stand before a congregation of women and teach. Some time last year at my church my preacher had another preacher and his wife come for like a night or two on the weekend to teach with the husbands and wives. I believe the men were in the church with the preacher and the women in the fellowship hall with the wife. And they taught from what I heard just how to be a better husband/wife.
But still this very different from a woman getting up behind a pulpit and claiming to be a God-called preacher. Respectfully, I believe a woman who does this or trys to teach men is out of place.

 

Mr Griffin, I see that you haven't answered my question about the text. O...kay...I have some more for you:-

1. Which language was the NT written in?

2. On the basis of what evidence do you say that the KJV is the only infallible version? (I don't particularly want to get into a "my-bible-is-better-than-your-bible" argument; I can bore you to tears if you like with endless arguments on the reliability of Textus Receptus, the Western Text, Majority Text, Alexandrian Text, Sinaiticus, Vaticanus, Masoretic v LXX etc ).

3. If, as you say, the KJV is the only infallible version of the bible, what implications does that have for those whose language is not Jacobean/ Shakespearian English ie: the entire non-English speaking world and most of the English speaking world - how are they meant to read the Word of God?

4. If you can't or won't give the Greek word(s) you are saying are translated 'preach', at least give me the Scripture references where your bible says that women can't 'preach'.

Yours in Christ

Matt

 

Hi Matt, I like to chime in every once in a while to let everyone know I don't consider my KJV bible any more inspired than my bibles that are printed in Dutch and German. Whenever I do study, I ALWAYS refer back to the greekl.hebrew, usually with a copy of Strong's reference (I don't own one, I ususally have to either borrow one or look it up on the net).

It's always important to know what the writers wrote, moreso than what the translators translated.

 

Amen, bro', amen

Yours in Christ

Matt

 

Read your Bible and listen to What the lord said
threw Paul? I honestly fill that Paul was in-
touch with the lord on this! 1-Cor ch 14:34-35
Verse 34-Said Let your Women keep silence in the
Churches: for it is not permitted unto them to
speak:but they are commanded to be under obedience; as also saith the Law.& Verse 35 And
if they will learn any thing; let them ask their
husbends at home: for it is a shame for Women
to speak in the Church.
WILLOW 2

 

Notice the text that reads, "...but they are commanded to be under obedience".

If a woman is spiritually called to pastor, then she must obay her calling and pastor. Under that circumstance, a woman is allowed to pastor.

CDGriffen, in an earlier post, acknowleged that, under certain circumstances, a woman is biblically allowed to fill that roll. This example I gave is another one.

So it seems that to even the most conservative interpretation of the verse discussed, a woman can be a pastor in some cases.

 

But did you also see & understand..That
the Verse's also stated that it is a
Shame for the women to speak in Church.
What's the problem with women speaking is..
Gods word said it's wrong..plan & simple.
It's Gods law acording to his word. She is
to keep silent in Church..So therefor it's
plain to see. The women was made subject to
Man .so my Study Bible tell's me..that the women
should keep her station & be content with it.
But the real problem is Man won't step up &
do what he is commanded to do? We need more men
to step up.

WILLOW 2

 

Not so. There are plenty of Godly men out there. Encourage men to take the lead. Don't assume that if a woman doesn't do it, it won't get done. That is female arrogence. Submit to God, and by his grace, what needs to get done will get done. (not meant personally)

The Bible says that the office of a bishop among other things is to be the husband of one wife. That is why woman should not become bishops. (Episcopas)(Pastor-Bishop)

This is an authority issue. Who has the authority? Who's being submissive to the chain of command.

The Bible also says that woman should teach other woman. (Didaskolas) (Pastor-Teacher)

Do woman preach? sure, they teach Didaskolas, Pastor-Teacher. They are not however told to be Presbuteros: Pastor-Elder, Episcopas: Pastor-Bishop, Poimen: Pastor-Shepherd, Kerux: Pastor-Preacher. While men who desire this good work are not only supposed to take on all of these aspects of pastoring, but the office of Didaskolos: Pastor-Teacher as well.

Are woman silent in church? Are you kidding?
Should they be reverant and in all subjection to the word of God, giving the appearance of meekness and being spritually lead? You bet.


Charlotte

[ March 07, 2003, 08:36 PM: Message edited by: Charlotte Marcel ]

 

Mr. Black, you are so observant! 1. Koine Greek as best I remember. 2.I did not say that I do not trust the Received Text. I am just saying I believe the KJB is inspired and will do. I trust my KJB. I do not speak nor write Koine Greek so it is somewhat difficult to talk about the Greek I do not know ,but again the KJB is English and I speak and write English so I like to stay with the English. Please do not bore me to tears with any argument against the KJB or for other English versions after 1880.
3. Again, I believe God will preserve His Word. In English I believe it is the KJB and in Greek the Received Text and in other languages other versions.
4. 1Timothy 3:1,2a- 1.This is a true saying, if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. 2a.A bishop must be the husband of one wife...
1Corinthians 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith te law.
1Timothy 2:11,12- 11.Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. 12.But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
A woman cant be the husband of one wife. Their to keep silence. Women are not to teach or usurp authority over the man. A pastor and a preacher is supposed to have authority.

Johnv, I did not say women could be pastors or preachers but only that they could teach women. They are not to teach men nor have authority over the man. A pastor is to have authority.

 

Thanks for your reply, Mr Griffin. I'm glad we dont' have to argue the whys and wherefores of the TR etc, as there's a whole board for that kind of thing

Thanks also for your quotes. But how do we square I Cor 14:34-35 with I Cor 11:5? Also, none of the quotes mention the word 'preach'. I think part of the problem lies in our definition of this word, and how that ties in with the scriptures. Briefly, there are two main Greek words which approxiamte to what most of us understand as 'preach' - kerysso and propheteo. Kerysso literally means 'proclaim' and is used eg in Matt 28:19. Surely your not saying that if a heathen man approaches a Christian woman and asks 'what must I do to be saved' that she should not proclaim the message of salvation to him?! Propheteo obviously means 'prophesy', and in its non-predictive sense can be used to describe what one does when one preaches ie: speak 'in place of God'/ God's words/ Word. I have dealt with this under Philip's daughters.

I think Charlotte has got closest to what Scripture actually says - but as she's a woman presuming to teach us men, perhaps we should discount her opinion...

Yours in Christ

Matt

 

MR. Black you hit the nail on the head that time.
It is so hard to understand each word's meaning.
But that's why we have Bible Studies I guess..
But we will never understand it all no matter what we do? But it's interesting trying to under-
stand..I believe Bible study is the most powerful
part of Church service for Me. I injoy The mind
working & puzzeling trying to figure thing's out.

WILLOW 2

 

Your welcome Mr. Black.
Respectfully,Sir, I am in no way saying women should not witness to men ,but I am just saying a woman is not to preach. Surely sir you can see the difference between preaching and witnessing. We see in the Bible where men preached and it was called preaching but never do we see where a woman stands and they call what she is doing preaching. We all have been called to give out the gospel ,but not all of us have been called to preach. I see what your trying to say in 1Cor. 11:5 but still it is called prophesying not preaching. We really do not find a woman preaching in the Bible; maybe prophesying but not preaching. Not only is such not in the Bible but in conservative Christian history it is not found. It is a relatively modern thing for one to see on a church sign "Bishops John and Jane Doe".
Now there are a few exceptions Mrs. Catherine Booth preached, there was I believe in the 1800's or early 1900's a penticostal woman in California who preached and maybe a few others ,but overall it is relatively modern. If God were calling women to preach why don't we have a female apostle or a female preacher named as such in the Bible? Not a prophetess but a preacher. Why is it so modern? Why not in the First and Second Great Awakenings in America or the Methodist Revivals in England or farther back the Reformation? Modern women preaching started with a penticostal woman and then to the methodist and all the other protestants and now it is in the Baptists. Look at its origin and see where it has started in a large part in the last maybe two centuries. Not all down through church history but just recently. Again if it was in the Bible why not sooner? Have so many women rejected the call of God throughout the centuries? Has God started something new? Did every other generation miss the obvious but ours? Or is the Bible just obvious on the subject? Women are not to preach.

 

Guys, please just call me Matt, otherwise I feel terribly old!

Again, I think we need to define what we mean by 'preach' as, as I have said, it is not strictly speaking a NT word, but has largely been popularised since the Reformation as one of the classic Protestant 'distinctives' eg:"preach the Word". If you mean "that which is generally done from the pulpit in terms of expositary teaching", I would see that as a mixture of teaching with a prophetic element. The teaching element would appear to be prohibited by I Tim 2:11-14 (although see my attempt at exegesis of this passage above); the prophecy bit certainly isn't as I hope I've shown. Or do you mean "that which can be done from the pulpit but can be done anywhere else as well by preaching the Gospel", I would see that as proclamation, and not prohibited; indeed we are all, regardless of sex, given the Great Commission of Matt 28:19, and I don't see that it matters what the venue is.

You asked about church history. Well, I don't know whether you subscribe to the Landmark/ successionist view of Baptist history, but if you do, IIRC Carroll refers to the montanists with approval - it should be noted that the three leaders of the montanists were Montanus himself and two women prophetesses. Then there's Junias, referred to in Rom 16 as being 'outstanding among the apostles'. Now the Greek here is ambiguous - not clear whether it means that she is an apostle or whether the other apostles think of her as outstanding, but certainly the early Orthodox church held her in high esteem as a female 'bishop'. I could give other examples if you like but haven't got time right now, and they would mainly be from the 'Catholic' pre-Reformation era so not sure whether you would accept them as valid; there is a general point flowing from this, namely that I think the main reason for the paucity of prominent women in church history is cultural - for centuries, particularly in the medieval era, women were seen as snares of the Devil and not fit for much except reproduction; only recently has their status significantly improved.

Yours in Christ

Matt

 

Bro. Matt

Again preaching from the pulpit or preaching from anywhere else is different than normal witnessing.
Again women are not given authority over the man and that is what a preacher is to have(authority over the church).
Like I said there are a few isolated cases and not all of them are confirmed. I did not understand all of what you said. But if you mean I believe "I am Baptist and not Protestant nor Catholic" than your right. Please, do not make the argument women have been suppressed and they are now just getting equality.

Now, Bro. Matt, I don't think I have changed your position or you mine ,but I enjoyed our discussion. I am through with the discussion. By all means make your last answer and I will read it. But I am through with the discussion ,and I hope we will find something else maybe where we see more eye to eye. Sincerely,
CD

 

By "preaching" to the younger women in the church, teaching/advising them ...

 

Brother CD, I too have enjoyed this, but I don't think we're going to convince each other so I'll bale out too before we get into a dialogue of the deaf.

Respectfully yours in Christ

Matt

 

Sorry there, it may sound a bit harsh ... but there's a HUGE difference in what YOU believe and what the Bible SAYS ...