Women Pastors?

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Dianna, Sep 26, 2006.

  1. Dianna

    Dianna
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    I am really needing some help, and I thought this might be a good place to come. All churches I have attended have been Baptist...I have always believed that woman are not to teach men, but yes can teach other women and children.

    I am on a Christian email list, which I love, and this issue has come up..yes brought up by me because a few women there are Pastors and Reverands. I was asking if in their role they only teach to women and children.

    No matter what scripture I use to show where my belief comes from all I get back is basciall to read Acts 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:


    ok but what about :
    1 Corinthians 14:34-35

    34Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. 35And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.



    What about..if women where to be Pastors wouldn't the bible lay out the requirements like it does for men?


    1 Timothy 3:1-13
    1 This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
    2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
    3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
    4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
    5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)
    6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.
    7 Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.
    8 Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;
    9 Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience.
    10 And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless.
    11 Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things.
    12 Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.
    13 For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.



    What about Titus 2 where it talks about women?


    Basically I feel like I am being told that one scripture Acts 2:17 is making the others null and void. I am not a Bible scholar, I know my knowledge in the Bible is lacking compared to a lot. But I do not want to just say ok..I agree..women can teach men all they want.



    When I asked about women keeping silent, I was told that if I knew the history of the scripture I would see that then the women all lived far apart, at this time they were told to be silent, because they would basically get chatty in church...


    Is not Jesus the same yesterday, today and forever? So would not the same be for God's word?



    I am not really sure what I am asking here. Just trying to get a clear concept of the scriptures. Any help would be apprecaited.



    I do not want to back down from what I belive.



    Dianna
     
  2. donnA

    donnA
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    I also believe women are not to be pastor and teach men, I think you have the right scripture. All scripture works in harmony with each other, when it looks like it doesn't, then the interpretation is wrong. Which is what has happened to those women you mentioned. The world tells women we are better then men, and should be able to do whatever men do, and then they carry it over to Christianity, trying to blend world views with biblical views, it creates a faulty view of scripture.
    I am not saying women are in any way less then men, or inferior, nor are they superior. But God has a certain order, as christians we are to follow His order.
    When you know what you believe is biblical never back down on it.
    At the same time it has to be God who changes their minds, just speak what you believe and why and leave it at that.
     
  3. bapmom

    bapmom
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    Hi Dianna,

    first of all, to prophesy is not the same as being in authority over, or in a teaching position towards men. Ok, so the women will prophesy.....that in no way implies that women pastors are acceptable to God.

    Prophesying basically means to "forth-tell", or to tell the message that God wants people to hear. Women can tell the gospel to people, and in that sense a woman can "prophesy"......she is telling the good message of the gospel.

    But that is absolutely not the same thing as being a pastor and having spiritual authority over men.


    These women who think it is the same seem to think that they are only being valued if they have a position, a title, and some kind of authority. Its as if they think it's worthless unless men are under their authority for some reason. I always want to ask, "What, is it somehow less of a position if it only includes women?"
     
  4. canadyjd

    canadyjd
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    Dianna:

    First, it has been my experience that you will not change their minds on this issue, no matter what scripture you quote. This best, I think, you can do is to be convinced in your own mind of the validity of your position.

    I Tim. 2:12 "But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man."

    Paul then gives the reason for his teaching. It relates to the fall. Before the fall, Adam and Eve had a perfect relationship. She was an equal, helper of her husband who lived in submission to his to his God-given authority as the head of the household. He acted in accordance to the will of God and treated his wife with the respect she deserved as his partner before God.

    After the fall, the relationship is marred. Eve will "desire" her husband but he will "lord" over her. This means the woman will attempt to usurp the authority of the husband, and the husband will abuse his position as head of the household.

    God has commanded male leadership in families and in the church. Unfortunately, many times the men are lazy on both fronts, and allow the women to assume their positions of authority.

    This does not mean women are less capable than men, or inferior in any way. God commands order in His church, and the model He has commanded is male leadership.

    peace to you:praying:
     
  5. Dianna

    Dianna
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    I do not either think women are inferior..I do believe there is an order..God..Christ..Man..Woman...woman was made for man, not man for woman. I will change what i belive to be true in order to fit in. I am trying to find a way to talk this out with these women, without it becoming a debate, an arguement..that is the last thing I want. These women have helped me through so much, through time when I was slipping away from the Lord, for what ever reason it was at that time, women I can always turn to and talk to when I need to. I had suggeted on the list that the subject be dropped, so it did not turn heated, but they will not let it drop. I don't know...I don't want this to effect our friendship, but I also can not say that yes they are right to calm the waters.

    Dianna
     
  6. Dianna

    Dianna
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    Thank you for explaining what Prophesying means...I was not sure the exact meaning...but I was sure it was not meant to mean preaching, as in the sense of a Pastor.

    Dianna
     
  7. Dianna

    Dianna
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    I am so glad I came here. I knew when I needed others to talk to about this, that a place full of Baptist would be the place to go :)
    I do appreciate everyone's insight on this.

    I have never been in a church setting where women are Pastors, where they are up in front of the congeration preaching. Yes they still teach, they teach the children, they teach other women, and to me it is laid out clearly in God's word.

    Dianna
    .
     
  8. Marcia

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    I agree with bapmom and canadyjd.

    Maybe you can point out that Acts 2.17 is not about teaching or having authority over men. You could also point out that if men are to be the head of the household, how can a woman be over a man in church?

    You can still be friends with these people -- just say you disagree, based on scripture, and that you all will have to agree to disagree. :)
     
  9. gb93433

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    There are not only biblical reasons but also practical and "that is the way God made it" reasons.

    One practical reason is that for strong male leaders to develop there must be strong male leaders to lead them. Typically a man will not followe a woman but a woman will follow a man.

    In civlizations aroun the world we see that as the number of women work in the society the number of women in society lead until that number reaches 50% and then goes down. That is just the way God made it.

    When those who have asked for reasons why a woman should not be pastor and give them these reasons there has never been any rebuttal.

    A woman can be a pastor but it not God's plan. Just as a person can steal even though it is not part of God's plan. There are churches in America in some of the more remote areas that for over 100 years have had women pastors mostly because that's the way it has been for so long and because the men won't lead.
     
  10. LeBuick

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    The world has sure changed from the Bible days. When I read the story of the 10 virgins, the wedding party waited on the groom. We do it all diferently these days and wait on the Bride. Times have sure changed.

    You speak of man being head of the household, what about households with no men? Either single mothers raising children or women living with women. Times sure have changed.

    We have 4 women preachers. 1 is very good. I have mixed feelings on the subject but I know the lord can send his word via any vessel he chooses. Times sure have changed.
     
  11. Revmitchell

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    God hasn't changed. Nor is he held captive to the times of men. Times and culture are not nearly as important as some make it out to be.
     
  12. donnA

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    amen :thumbs:
     
  13. El_Guero

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    Dianna

    Since you know what God has led you to affirm, then agree with them to disagree.

    God bless!

    Wayne
     
  14. SBCPreacher

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    Not meaning to be argumentative at all, but I'm real confused. Let me see if I've got this straight: you're at a Baptist church with 4 women pastors?
     
  15. tinytim

    tinytim
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    Welcome to the smorgasboard of Baptists!

    All different types, all different flavas.

    Some for a woman to pastor is no problem.
    Some believe that a woman can preach, but not pastor.
    Some believe that it is alright for a woman to be a missionary to a foreign land, but not preach on home soil.
    Some believe it is not right for a woman to preach, but can still teach
    Some believe that a woman can teach other women and young children
    Some believe that a woman should not teach anyone
    Some believe that a woman should not even open her mouth for a testimony
    Some believe that a woman should not even be allowed to sing..(a church where I grew up was like this.... not one I attended, but nearby)


    The range varies... and they all base their beliefs in the Bible. They just interpret things differently.

    I come down somewhere in the middle....
    I could never set under a woman pastor, but I do respect other church's right to choose one if they do so, and will respect the woman pastor.
    At the church I just left as youth pastor, we would have a woman speaker in once a yr for our "American Baptist Women's Sunday" service.

    The women would lead service, sing, usher, and speak.
    Oh, and we had deaconesses... But that is another subject.

    Ok, now you know I am a heretic!!!!! lol
     
  16. LeBuick

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    Very legitimate observation, the Church had women preachers when I took it over. The day I sit them down is the day I resign. I did say I have mixed feelings but more on the lines that I don't believe all were called to the ministry. I have the same feelings about some of the men preachers also. I feel when God calls one to the ministry, he will equip them for the position (enough said).

    Tiny, we have the same here. Womans day usually means a woman speaker. There is one local Church whose pastor is strongly against women preachers. He will take the rostrum from the Pulpit and sit it on the floor of the sanctuary each time a women speaks at his Church.
     
  17. bapmom

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    of course, God can and does send His word through any vessel He chooses. Why, He once used a donkey to speak His Word! However, Im not going to use that passage to justify having a donkey pastor in my church.............

    and no, Im not calling women donkeys.....so please keep the hoots down. :)

    Simply being good at preaching also does not justify a woman being a pastor over men. We've gotten our judgements all out of whack here. Nowhere does the Bible say that a woman can't be pastor because of a lack of ability, or because God will only use men to get His point across. His reasonings (whether we like it or not) are that the woman was deceived in the Garden, and that she was created second.

    Households with no men in it are not able to meet God's ideal plan for the home...........this does not mean that God cannot or will not bless that single mother who is trying to serve God and raise a good Godly family. God gives her other men to serve as male role models for her children. God has also instituted the church to help fill in when man fails in his duties.

    However, the plight of the single mother is also not a justification for women pastors.
     
  18. Dianna

    Dianna
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    I do not plan on cutting off ties with these women, their friendship has helped me through a lot of hard times. And maybe one day I will say something that will help them. :)

    Dianna
     
  19. Dianna

    Dianna
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    I agree the world has changed...but God has not. I am not good at quoting scripture..but I do know it says that Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever...it does not say the world is the same yesterday, today and forever. I don't think because the world changes, because people, think certian things should be differnt, that we should change God's word to fit what we think is right.

    Dianna
     
  20. Jack Matthews

    Jack Matthews
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    Are there, perhaps, some hints from Paul that the restrictions placed on women serving as pastors, elders or deacons (which are servant leader positions and not authorities) was a result of the position of women in the specific churches where it is mentioned, and was not intended to be a practice for all Christians for all time? That's something I wonder about all the time.

    You are all children of God through faith in Christ Jesus, for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed and heirs according to the promise. Galatians 3:26-29, NIV

    What then shall we say, brothers? When you come together, everyone has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. All of these must be done for the strengthening of the church. I Corinthians 14:26

    In the last days, God says, I will pour out my spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams. Even on my servants, both men and women I will pour out my spirit in those days, and they will prophesy. Acts 2:17-18

    In the early New Testament church, the overseer or Bishop, or pastor as we would call him, didn't deliver the sermon after the song service, prayer and scripture reading. Everyone participated, apparently women as well. There is a distinction between a woman preaching, and a woman serving as a pastor or Bishop or elder, of a church.

    But I think there is a more important distinction to make here. Christianity is the faith that has elevated women from their status as property to equals in society. The New Testament writers pushed their fellow believers toward marriages founded on Christ and on love, and away from tradition and ownership and property rights. They were told to love their wives as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for it. That's a major paradigm shift for that period of time, where women were property and a marriage was a business arrangement between the faither in law and son in law.

    Take a look inside most churches today, including Baptists, and find out who is doing the lion's share of ministry work.

    Do we make other interpretations and applications of scripture because of different cultural expressions today? How many of you treat your slaves with compassion and gentleness? The New Testament doesn't teach that owning slaves is wrong, but how many of you have them? How many of you think that would be morally wrong?

    I have a great uncle and aunt who attend a little Baptist church way up in the hills of Mingo County, West Virginia in a small community that used to be a coal camp on a creek called Brushy Fork. There is an 82 year old woman who leads the singing and preaches in that church every Sunday, and has for almost 30 years since their last pastor resigned and they were not able to find another. It is too far up in the hills, and doesn't pay much. None of the men in the church stepped up to take the job, and after having just Sunday school for almost a year, this lady did step up. Wrong? Unbiblical?
     

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