Women Preachers - could they be okay?

I have not seen anyone here unable to do this. The gift of preaching is not the same as the position and gift of pastors. That is totally irrelevant. It is a frequent ploy of those who desire to allow women to do things God has forbidden them to do however. (I am not saying that you are doing this.) But they argue that God wouldn't gift them for somethign and then not allow them to do it. I happen to agree.

 

Authority is rule over and responsbility for. And the Bible says that parents have it over children. It is impossible for children to be in obedience to God if they are not in obedience to their parents.

"Over" and "between" seem like labored distinctions. Authority does is not something that ever goes "between" so far as I can tell. Trying to link authority to salvation (as you do in another post) is also labored. It misses the point.

These passages I cite clearly affirm that the pastor has authority in the church, and that is meaningless if he has no authority over the people who make up the church.

It is not an authority to micromanage someone's life. But it is authority.

 

That is not always true. The command in Ephesians has a condition "in the Lord." A child who has parents that command him to engage in a crime or lie for them is obligated to not be obedient to their parent but God first. God comes before any parent.

Luke 14:26 -27, "If anyone comes to Me, and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple. "Whoever does not carry his own cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple."

 

Obviously. I would have imagined that would not have needed to be stated for the almost never chance that that happens.

However, "in the Lord" could be taken a number of different ways, not necessarily having to do with whether the parents are asking for disobedience to God.

This verse is really on a completely different topic.

 

"Gift of preaching"? I musta' missed that one when I read the listings of the 'spiritual' gifts found in Rom. 12; I Cor. 12-14; and Eph. 4. Why don't you help me out by supplying the verse that I obviously must have overlooked. I'd appreciate it.

And I'd also like to know the verses that imply that "pastor" is ever said to be a "position", anywhere, as well. Missed those too, obviously!

With all respect, Pastor Larry, your own post is a great example of exactly what I am referring to. There is not one verse of Scripture that ever equates "preaching" as a spiritual gift, unlike that of the 20 some-odd other gifts that are ennumerated in Scripture; and there is not one verse of Scripture that ever considers "Pastor" as an office or a "position" unlike that of 'bishop/elder', 'deacon', 'saint' and possibly even 'deaconess'. I am open to the last one, however I am not, in the least, open to any such thing as a deacon or an elder who is a woman. I would also not be open to any such thing as a 'deaconess' who is a man, either, FTR. The 'offices', aside from that of 'saint', are all gender specific. Not one gift is said to be such.

If we keep the offices and gifts separate, as Scripture does, IMO, we will not make this overlapping, as is common, in current church practice, and avoid the problems that arise from confuting the two.

Dr. Bob well noted that the word 'pastor' is only used one time in Scripture.

And I refer you to my own post # 32, for more detail on gifts and offices.

Ed

 

Having been in business for years you would be surprised at what happens. Sometime ask a business owner.

 

If you did a study on presbuteros and episkopos starting with the OT, through the intertestamental period, through the NT and into the early church period you would find some interesting things. Take note of the time when the words are in use.

 

There have actually been a couple prophetess, mostly in the old testiment. As far as witnessing, John 4:1-42. Speaks for itself. (You'll have to read to find out what!)

Also, I thought evanglists were missionaries.

The context of your quote is Ephesians 4:1-16. In truth, useing the dominate male vernacular of the time (MANkind, God loved all MEN, MAN is master of this world) I must say no indication of gender is given in this passage. It's relivent to the missionary/pastor discussion true, but objectively speaking it doesn't take a side on this issue.

Are you saying women should be banned from teaching to? Read carefully.

Are you guys meaning to quote something else?

 

Oh wow... there's 11 pages! I thought this thread was made today... dang! I guess I'll have to be more recent.

 

The gifts of teaching and exhortation are both preaching gifts because they are proclamation gifts, which is what preaching is. To say that preaching isn't a gift is not really helpful since it does not recognize the nature of various gifts.

It is an office in teh church. We generally called it a position. Again, you can niggle over words if you like, but it isn't helpful to this discussion. "Pastor" is an office. You can call the office pastor, elder, or bishop. Elder and bishop are not commonly used today in baptist churches as titles, and with good reason, IMO: Bishop generally recalls a heirarchical church polity, and elder generally recalls a Mormon. Pastor is certainly acceptable.

Let's face it: the NT didn't even use the word "pastor" once. It used the word "poimen," but when when was hte last time you called someone that?

What are you talking about?

Yes there is. You are simply misunderstanding the point here.

The words for pastor, elder, and bishop are all used to refer to the same office. This is historic Baptist polity. If you don't agree with it, then you probably should not be posting here in the Baptist only forums. Acts 20 and 1 Peter 5 make clear that these three all refer to the same office. "Deacon" is the other office in teh NT church. "Saint" is not an office.

No one here, least of all I, is suggesting we conflate these things.

Bob, if he said such, has overlooked the uses of the cognate verb (1 Peter 5:2; Acts 20:28 where the work of pastoring is referenced). Furthermore, Bob, if he is arguing something substantive from such a statement is missing the point. The point is that bishop/elder/pastor all refer to the same office in the NT church. So I am not sure what Bob's point is.

It is not all that helpful to me, to be honest. I think there is a lot of parsing here of relatively simple stuff for the context of this discussion.

Again, as I have said before, the issue is not women "preaching" per se, but as the Bible says, "teaching and exercising authority over men." If a woman preaches to women, that's fine. My comments, from my very first post, were about the issue of authority over men.

 

I don't believe one will find presbuteros or episkopos in Hebrew, nor do I read Greek well enough (and have the time, considering that) to search through the LXX to see the translation, and how they applied to Israel.

Even so, the OT uses do not directly apply to the church, for the church is a NT 'revelation', as I see it. Thus, any OT usage is still not directly applicable to the church, IMO.

Regardless, what do these two words have specifically to do with whether or not poimEnos (or more accurately - poimEnos/didaskalos) is a 'spiritual gift' to the church, and presbuteros and episkopos refer to an 'office' of the church? The two (gift and 'office') do not necessarily correlate exactly, which has been my point, all along.

But thanks for noting that I could stand to study more. I do agree, here.

Ed

 

Why not use the term used in scripture rather than be reactionary? Isn't that an opportunity to give a biblical example of what the truth is rather than let cults and other denominations define those words?

Too many people interpret scripture in light of the example they currently experience. Too many baptists think that a democracy (a system of winners and losers) is biblical because so many Baptist churches have that kind of polity. Mormons came a long time after Baptists.

In scripture we see more than one kind of polity. We see both a top down and a bottom up approach church government. What it boils down to is to what works best at the time. As churches change in size, often so does the style of church government.

 

The point is that episkopos (bishop) is not an early word. Elder (prebuteros) is a word which came from Judaism and a word used in society. Episkopos came later in time.

If you use an LXX you will find prebuteros and not episkopos. In the NT you will find both. In the NT we see many words which were used in Judaism and now applied to the early church. The first meeting places were called synagogues.

The person who holds the position of pastor-teacher must be able to shepherd and teach people. There are people who can teach and people who can shepherd people but are not in the same person. A pastor must be able to teach and shepherd.

 

Absolutely. "Pastor" is used in Scripture and is therefore appropriate to use today.

I don't think we see more than one kind of polity in Scripturee.

In the church, episkopos did not come much later. It appears to be used relatively close to the beginning.

Which doesn't help since the church is a NT organism, and the LXX is speaking of Judaism. There are clear differences when we compare the two scripturally.

The first meeting places were synagogues. They were not simply called that. And the reason many words are the same is because they describe a similar concept, not because they are identical in practice or originatino.

 

I do not see a democracy as we see in many Baptist churches today. I see no evidence of voting on a pastor and deacons.

 

I did.

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1214080&postcount=2

 

ACts 6 plainly shows the church selecting men from among them to be deacons. Electing pastors is not clearly seen in teh NT, but no other alternative is clearly seen either. I don't see a democracy in Baptist churches today, so perhaps I run in a different circle than you. The evidence for congregationl government is great; the evidence for an alternative that does not involve the apostles is utterly absent. So congregational polity seems the pattern of the NT.

 

Then they better find some. :saint:

1 Timothy chapter 3 (KJV)
1: This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
2: A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
3: Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
4: One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
5: (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)
6: Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.
7: Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.
8: Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;
9: Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience.
10: And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless.
11: Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things.
12: Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.
13: For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.
14: These things write I unto thee, hoping to come unto thee shortly:
15: But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.