women priests excommunicated/thoughts?

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by donnA, Aug 5, 2002.

  1. donnA

    donnA
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    I read this today,about the pope excommunicating these women priests and wondered what the catholics on here opinion was. Does anyone know more about this then whats in this article? So did this this priest in Austria just ordain them, even though the church does not approve?
    I also added the last link that was with the news article. It looks to me like these catholics do not believe the pope is infallabe, as they say they believe he is wrong in not allowing women priests.

    I am not looking for debate, or trying to start anything, just thoughts and opinions. This is interesting.

    n_excommunication_dc

    http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2002/08/05/women_priests0200805

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/2173868.stm

    http://www.womenpriests.org/
     
  2. LaRae

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    Women can't be Priests. All faithful Catholics are required to uphold this teaching of the Church. Pope John Paul II wrote a lengthy document about the issue of women's ordination and it's very clear that the Church does not have the authority to ordain women.

    LaRae


    read this today,about the pope excommunicating these women priests and wondered what the catholics on here opinion was. Does anyone know more about this then whats in this article? So did this this priest in Austria just ordain them, even though the church does not approve?
    I also added the last link that was with the news article. It looks to me like these catholics do not believe the pope is infallabe, as they say they believe he is wrong in not allowing women priests.

    I am not looking for debate, or trying to start anything, just thoughts and opinions. This is interesting.
     
  3. trying2understand

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    My thoughts:

    Women priests - never going to happen.

    If they are not in unity with the Church, then they aren't Catholic, no matter what they want to call themselves.
     
  4. CatholicConvert

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    BRAVO EL PAPA!!

    Now he needs to do the same for those abortionist so-called "Catholic" politicians in Washington D.C.

    BTW -- Just for your information, since you are curious. Excommunication is a very serious matter, since the Eucharist is the source of eternal life. (John 6:53) These people probably don't care,

    BUT THEY WILL ONE DAY BEFORE THE THRONE!!

    Brother Ed
     
  5. donnA

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    Ok, what are your thoughts on the fourth site, catholics who think there should be women priests, and them thinking the pope is wrong?
    When I was reading all this I thought now this just doesn't seem right.
    They don't sound very catholic. Like someone said just in name, you can call yourself anything you want.
    I was just curious. Thank you for your answers.
     
  6. LaRae

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    Well it falls into what has already been said. If you support things that contradict Church teaching then you are in a dangerous area. You are either Catholic or you aren't.

    The Church doesn't have to issue a formal document to excommunicate someone....one's actions can separate them from the Church.

    LaRae

    Ok, what are your thoughts on the fourth site, catholics who think there should be women priests, and them thinking the pope is wrong?
    When I was reading all this I thought now this just doesn't seem right.
    They don't sound very catholic. Like someone said just in name, you can call yourself anything you want.
    I was just curious. Thank you for your answers.
     
  7. UncleRay

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    The only time I'm ever called a liberal is when my faith is involved. I am liberal when we ask how great is God's love. Just to set the facts straight, I very much oppose abortion and the death penalty.

    I am Roman Catholic and still support the ordination of women.

    Now there is a big difference in supporting the ordination in my prayers and discussions and actually attending or supporting the type of woman's ordination that happened recently. I agree with my more conservative friends that the recent ordination was not a valid Roman Catholic ordination.

    The major Catholic theologans I read tend to support the ordination of women. The pope commissioned research by the Vatican's Biblical Commission. They returned the position that there is no definite prohibition for women priests. They also concluded there is no specific scripture requiring women to be priests.

    The report has been pretty much ignored just as the research on birth control was ignored.

    For now there are no ordained Roman Catholic women priests. Some day there will be (IMHO). But not likely in my lifetime.

    Some Catholics believe that this subject cannot even be discussed. It is a closed issue. Obviously I don't agree.

    Catholic and universal does not mean uniform. Still, in practice I follow the leadership of the Church.

    Grace and peace,
    Uncle Ray
     
  8. Briguy

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    Uncle Ray writes:
    """"I am Roman Catholic and still support the ordination of women.""""

    Uncle Ray, How do you reconcile your above statement with the words of Paul that says that a woman should not teach or have authority over a man (I think that is in 1 tim. but I am sure you know that scripture)

    I am sorry if this is off topic but my curiosity got the best of me.

    Uncle Ray, I thought that the Catholic leadership was ordained by God to decide matters like this and that all catholics need to adhere to the teachings because they are the "correct" scriptual interpretations, even divinely inspired, if I understand right. How do you then stay catholic but not agree with the inspired teachings?, at least in this one area anyway.

    Now I am really off topic - sorry again

    In Christ,
    Brian
     
  9. LaRae

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    I direct attention to the following document and read it carefully. I think the Pope has made it fairly clear.

    APOSTOLIC LETTER
    ORDINATIO SACERDOTALIS
    OF JOHN PAUL II
    TO THE BISHOPS
    OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH
    ON RESERVING PRIESTLY ORDINATION
    TO MEN ALONE

    Venerable Brothers in the Episcopate,

    1. Priestly ordination, which hands on the office entrusted by Christ to his Apostles of teaching, sanctifying and governing the faithful, has in the Catholic Church from the beginning always been reserved to men alone. This tradition has also been faithfully maintained by the Oriental Churches.

    When the question of the ordination of women arose in the Anglican Communion, Pope Paul VI, out of fidelity to his office of safeguarding the Apostolic Tradition, and also with a view to removing a new obstacle placed in the way of Christian unity, reminded Anglicans of the position of the Catholic Church: "She holds that it is not admissible to ordain women to the priesthood, for very fundamental reasons. These reasons include: the example recorded in the Sacred Scriptures of Christ choosing his Apostles only from among men; the constant practice of the Church, which has imitated Christ in choosing only men; and her living teaching authority which has consistently held that the exclusion of women from the priesthood is in accordance with God's plan for his Church."(1)

    But since the question had also become the subject of debate among theologians and in certain Catholic circles, Paul VI directed the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith to set forth and expound the teaching of the Church on this matter. This was done through the Declaration Inter Insigniores, which the Supreme Pontiff approved and ordered to be published.(2)

    2. The Declaration recalls and explains the fundamental reasons for this teaching, reasons expounded by Paul VI, and concludes that the Church "does not consider herself authorized to admit women to priestly ordination."(3) To these fundamental reasons the document adds other theological reasons which illustrate the appropriateness of the divine provision, and it also shows clearly that Christ's way of acting did not proceed from sociological or cultural motives peculiar to his time. As Paul VI later explained: "The real reason is that, in giving the Church her fundamental constitution, her theological anthropology-thereafter always followed by the Church's Tradition- Christ established things in this way."(4)

    In the Apostolic Letter Mulieris Dignitatem, I myself wrote in this regard: "In calling only men as his Apostles, Christ acted in a completely free and sovereign manner. In doing so, he exercised the same freedom with which, in all his behavior, he emphasized the dignity and the vocation of women, without conforming to the prevailing customs and to the traditions sanctioned by the legislation of the time."(5)

    In fact the Gospels and the Acts of the Apostles attest that this call was made in accordance with God's eternal plan; Christ chose those whom he willed (cf. Mk 3:13-14; Jn 6:70), and he did so in union with the Father, "through the Holy Spirit" (Acts 1:2), after having spent the night in prayer (cf. Lk 6:12). Therefore, in granting admission to the ministerial priesthood,(6) the Church has always acknowledged as a perennial norm her Lord's way of acting in choosing the twelve men whom he made the foundation of his Church (cf. Rv 21:14). These men did not in fact receive only a function which could thereafter be exercised by any member of the Church; rather they were specifically and intimately associated in the mission of the Incarnate Word himself (cf. Mt 10:1, 7-8; 28:16-20; Mk 3:13-16; 16:14-15). The Apostles did the same when they chose fellow workers(7) who would succeed them in their ministry.(8) Also included in this choice were those who, throughout the time of the Church, would carry on the Apostles' mission of representing Christ the Lord and Redeemer.(9)

    3. Furthermore, the fact that the Blessed Virgin Mary, Mother of God and Mother of the Church, received neither the mission proper to the Apostles nor the ministerial priesthood clearly shows that the non-admission of women to priestly ordination cannot mean that women are of lesser dignity, nor can it be construed as discrimination against them. Rather, it is to be seen as the faithful observance of a plan to be ascribed to the wisdom of the Lord of the universe.

    The presence and the role of women in the life and mission of the Church, although not linked to the ministerial priesthood, remain absolutely necessary and irreplaceable. As the Declaration Inter Insigniores points out, "the Church desires that Christian women should become fully aware of the greatness of their mission: today their role is of capital importance both for the renewal and humanization of society and for the rediscovery by believers of the true face of the Church."(10)

    The New Testament and the whole history of the Church give ample evidence of the presence in the Church of women, true disciples, witnesses to Christ in the family and in society, as well as in total consecration to the service of God and of the Gospel. "By defending the dignity of women and their vocation, the Church has shown honor and gratitude for those women who-faithful to the Gospel-have shared in every age in the apostolic mission of the whole People of God. They are the holy martyrs, virgins and mothers of families, who bravely bore witness to their faith and passed on the Church's faith and tradition by bringing up their children in the spirit of the Gospel."(11)

    Moreover, it is to the holiness of the faithful that the hierarchical structure of the Church is totally ordered. For this reason, the Declaration Inter Insigniores recalls: "the only better gift, which can and must be desired, is love (cf. 1 Cor 12 and 13). The greatest in the Kingdom of Heaven are not the ministers but the saints."(12)

    4. Although the teaching that priestly ordination is to be reserved to men alone has been preserved by the constant and universal Tradition of the Church and firmly taught by the Magisterium in its more recent documents, at the present time in some places it is nonetheless considered still open to debate, or the Church's judgment that women are not to be admitted to ordination is considered to have a merely disciplinary force.

    Wherefore, in order that all doubt may be removed regarding a matter of great importance, a matter which pertains to the Church's divine constitution itself, in virtue of my ministry of confirming the brethren (cf. Lk 22:32) I declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church's faithful.

    Invoking an abundance of divine assistance upon you, venerable brothers, and upon all the faithful, I impart my apostolic blessing.

    From the Vatican, on May 22, the Solemnity of Pentecost, in the year 1994, the sixteenth of my Pontificate.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    NOTES

    1. Paul VI, Response to the Letter of His Grace the Most Reverend Dr. F.D. Coggan, Archbishop of Canterbury, concerning the Ordination of Women to the Priesthood (November 30, 1975); AAS 68 (1976), 599.

    2. Cf. Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, Declaration Inter Insigniores on the question of the Admission of Women to the Ministerial Priesthood (October 15, 1976): AAS 69 (1977), 98-116.

    3. Ibid., 100.

    4. Paul VI, Address on the Role of Women in the Plan of Salvation (January 30, 1977): Insegnamenti, XV (1977), 111. Cf. Also John Paul II Apostolic Exhortation Christifideles laici (December 30, 1988), n. 51: AAS 81 (1989), 393-521; Catechism of the Catholic Church, n. 1577.

    5. Apsotolic Letter Mulieris Dignnitatem (August 15, 1988), n. 26: AAS 80 (1988), 1715.

    6. Cf. Dogmatic Constitution Lumen Gentium, n. 28 Decree Presbyterorum Ordinis, n. 2b.

    7. Cf. 1 Tm 3:1-13; 2 Tm 1:6; Ti 1:5-9.

    8. Cf. Catechism of the Catholic Church, n. 1577.

    9. Cf. Dogmatic Constitution on the Church Lumen Gentium, nn. 20,21.

    10. Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, Declaration Inter Insigniores, n. 6: AAS 69 (1977), 115-116.

    11. Apostolic Letter Mulieris Dignitatem, n. 27: AAS 80 (1988), 1719.

    12. Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, Declaration Inter Insigniores n. 6: AAS 69 (1977), 115.
     
  10. donnA

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    Lets see, the pope is infallable, and he says women can not be priests. Then you have a catholic who believes women can be priests. Seems that catholic is saying the pope is not infallable. If he is not infallable on one subject, how many others is he not infallable on?
     
  11. trying2understand

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    Katie, you seem to have made an error in your line of reasoning.

    That one Catholic does not agree with the Pope, or does not think that the Pope is infallible, in some area of doctrine, does not change the infallability of the Pope in matters of doctrine one wit.

    It simply means that one particular Catholic is in error.

    But also notice that same Catholic stated his obedience and submission to the teachings of the Church. He's not splitting off to start his own church, as is the tradition of some others.
     
  12. Dualhunter

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    Let's build on that. The pope says that as the pope he is infallable, the reason that the pope must say that women cannot be priests is because as soon as he does, there will be a clear undisputable example of how the pope is not infallible. If a catholic already disagrees with the what the pope said on an issue of faith and doctrine, then by extension the catholic rejects the infalliability of the pope and because the pope claims to be infalliable, he is found to be a lier in the eyes of anybody who does not believe him to be infalliable. Whatever the pope thinks about other issues and whatever a catholic thinks about other issues is irrelevant, if the pope is found to have been false even once in one thing, he is found to be a lier. So if you think the pope is a lier, why in the world are you still in the Roman Catholic church? (obviously this is not a question for catholics who support the pope in everything that he and previous and future popes say, but it is a question for those who disagree with other doctrines besides the restriction of ordination to men only)
     
  13. Dualhunter

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    Katie, you seem to have made an error in your line of reasoning.

    That one Catholic does not agree with the Pope, or does not think that the Pope is infallible, in some area of doctrine, does not change the infallability of the Pope in matters of doctrine one wit.

    It simply means that one particular Catholic is in error.

    But also notice that same Catholic stated his obedience and submission to the teachings of the Church. He's not splitting off to start his own church, as is the tradition of some others.
    </font>[/QUOTE]According to the beliefs of the mentioned Catholic, the pope is wrong and therefore not infalliable. I agree that one person's beliefs do not necessarily speak for another person's beliefs but it is still strange to trust a man which claims that he cannot be wrong, but which you believe is wrong. If somebody is wrong but does not claim infalliability, it is understandable because they are human and we are living in a fallen world. However, if somebody does claim to be infalliable and is wrong then they are a lier and I don't see why anybody trust somebody whom they know is a lier.
     
  14. trying2understand

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    You begin by making an assumption that may be incorrect. That being that a particular Catholic was even aware that the prohibition of the Church against the ordination of women had been infallibly declared.

    Now, lets set specifics aside and look at your question as I understand it. Why would someone remain in the Catholic Church when the Church may teach a particular doctrine that they may not personally agree with?

    As the Apostles said to Jesus, "... to whom shall we go?"
     
  15. LaRae

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    Katie,

    I don't think you understand about Papal Infallibility. Every word the Pope utters is not infalliable.

    Here's some info about infallibility:

    Ex Cathedra pronouncements ARE infallible (of which they've been but two)

    Yet, Ex Cathedra pronouncements are NOT the ONLY infallible statements..

    Some Catholics wrongly believe that ONLY "ex cathedra" Papal Statements are
    infallible. This would limit infallible dogma to two, the Immaculate Conception
    and the Assumption. Obviously, only 2 infallible dogmas in 2,000 years sounds
    very sparse. Some theologians incorrectly proliferate a notion that ONLY the
    Extraordinary Magisterium is infallible. Even Raymond Brown has abandoned
    this notion. Ergo, propositions like the one you mention, that the doctrine of the
    perpetual virginity of the B.V.M. is NOT infallible, are ridiculous. If in doubt, the
    BEST resource is Denziger's Enchiridion Symbolorum. Next, is Ludwig Ott's
    monumental work, "The Fundamentals of Dogma." There, one can find the
    theological distinctions made between divinely revealed truths (DE FIDE) and
    those which are only theologically certain.

    DE FIDE is the highest level of theological/doctrinal truth. They are INFALLIBLE
    statements by their very nature, like the Holy Trinity, The Real Presence, etc.

    Next, are VERITATES CATHOLICAE (catholic truths) like the existence of God
    which can be known through reason alone.

    Finally, there are four types of THEOLOGICAL OPINIONS:

    1. SENTENTIA FIDEI PROXIMA (proximate to the Faith) like the Trinity can be
    known only through Revelation.

    2. SENTENTIA CERTA (theologically certain) like Monogenism, i.e., that the
    human race came from one set of parents.

    3. SENTENTIA COMMUNIA (common teaching) like the Church's prohibition &
    proscription of artificial contraception.

    4. SENTENTIA PROBABILIS (probable teaching) like the premise that the Virgin
    Mary died before being Assumed into Heaven.

    According to Pope Pius XII in Humani Generis & Vatican II in Lumen Gentium
    #25, even non-infallible teachings are to receive the submission of mind and will
    of the faithful. While not requiring the ASSENT OF FAITH, they CANNOT be
    disputed nor rejected publicly and the benefit of the doubt must be given to the
    one possessing the fullness of teaching authority. The heterodox concept of a
    dual magisteria, i.e., the theologians, is not based on scriptural nor traditional
    grounds. Some have gone as far as to propose a triple magisteria, the body of
    believers. While it is true that as a whole, the body of believers is infallible in that
    SENSUS FIDEI is that the Church as the Mystical Body cannot be in error on
    matters of faith and morals, the TEACHING AUTHORITY (Magisterium) resides
    solely with the Roman Pontiff and the College of Bishops in union with him.
     
  16. Dualhunter

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    You begin by making an assumption that may be incorrect. That being that a particular Catholic was even aware that the prohibition of the Church against the ordination of women had been infallibly declared.

    Now, lets set specifics aside and look at your question as I understand it. Why would someone remain in the Catholic Church when the Church may teach a particular doctrine that they may not personally agree with?

    As the Apostles said to Jesus, "... to whom shall we go?"
    </font>[/QUOTE]That question was asked by Jesus' disciples and they new that eternal life was in Jesus and no where else, not in the Roman Catholic church but in Jesus.

    I'm pretty sure that UncleRay is aware that the official position of the Catholic church is that only men may be ordained as priests, and that it is also the official position of the Catholic church that the pope is infallible, but he disagrees anyway. Many other people who call themselves Catholics will not always agree with Catholic teachings but will still claim that the pope is infallible or they may even reject that teaching as well. The point here is, if you effectively reject infallibility, why would you trust somebody who claims to be infallible?
     
  17. LaRae

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    dual,

    You seem to be misunderstanding what the Catholic Church teaches. The Pope is not always infallible. He is only infallible when speaking in regards to faith and morals.

    LaRae
     
  18. trying2understand

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    I'll try to start a new thread on this in a couple of days. I'll call it "Which miracle?" [​IMG]

    [ August 06, 2002, 08:42 PM: Message edited by: trying2understand ]
     
  19. trying2understand

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    No offense, but perhaps it would be best not to assume what the beliefs and knowledge of others may be. You would do better to ask, then draw your conclusions.

    Have you reading what has been posted here by other Catholics concerning the Pope, the Church, and infalability?

    Are you certain that you have a true understanding of infalability as actually taught by the Church? Or does your knowledge of it come only from sources outside of the Catholic Church?
     
  20. donnA

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    I'm sorry, that is nt what I meant. I was speaking of that one persons belief, how they themselves could say the pope is infallable and yet say he's wrong on women priests.

    Yes, I know, in matter of faith(catholic religion) what the pope says goes, he is infallable. Well this is part of it, the pope has said according to these articles that women can not be priests. Then along comes this other catholic and says he's wrong.

    You all seem to have misunderstood me. When I started this post, I was in agreement, and just wanted to know about you, simply becasue of the article where the catholic guy said he disagreed even thought the pope had already said no. So don't jump on me, I didn't do anything wrong.
     

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