Word of Faith and 'Name it Claim it'

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Heavenly Pilgrim, Jun 29, 2007.

  1. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim
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    There are indeed some Scriptures that would at first glance support the ‘name it claim it’ message of the Word of Faith movement. For instance, Mt 21:22” And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.”

    How would those on the list. that believe that ‘the name it claim it’s’ are in error, refute the way those passages are misused? What do you see as the error of that movement? What are some passages of Scripture that would refute the error of the Word of Faith movement?
     
  2. Jkdbuck76

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    Go to the book of James and he expounds on praying correctly.

    Here is my problem with people like this: My friend and his wife lost their 10 year old. When he was visiting with a mutual friend of ours (who is a word of faith, blab it and grab it type), said mutual friend told him that the reason their 10 year old was dead was that they lacked faith.

    My friend has enough faith that God could have saved his son's life. My friend has faith that God raised His own Son (amen!). My friend has faith that God is powerful enough to raise him on that last day. To sum it up, my friend places his faith in God and His Son.

    My friend does not place his faith in faith, nor does he depend on himself to save himself.

    I've lost a baby before. I believe God could have saved her, but He didn't do so. It wasn't because I "lacked faith" or that I didn't "positively confess out loud" that God will save her life. God took her despite my prayers. God took her despite the fact that I believe in Him and His Son.

    None of us have a right to be healed. None of us have a right to be wealthy. Blab it and grab it seems to tell us that all the prosperity promises belong to the church. Blab it and grab it panders to human greed. Money money money money money. Send in your seed money! If you are sick, it is because you have a faith problem.

    A favorite verse that the blab it and grab it proponent will use is in Isaiah 53 where by His stripes we are healed. They take it out of context to mean we are physically healed, but a reading of that passage IN CONTEXT shows that God is speaking in spiritual terms and that the healing is of our souls.

    Oh yeah, and how many times do you hear one of THEIR teachers talk about seeing Jesus and being taken up into heaven? Just do a google search on benny hinn ( I refuse to capitalize his name ).
     
  3. DHK

    DHK
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    The Word of Faith movement is not a Biblical movement.
    Faith needs an object--always.
    The object of our faith, for Biblical Christianity, must be Christ.

    Hebrews 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.


    The object of those who believe in Word of faith; the object of their faith is faith. They have faith in their faith. It is a totally unscriptural conept. If you don't have enough faith in your faith your prayers will go unanswered. The Bible does not teach that. The object of my faith is Christ. May His will be done in my life.
     
  4. hillclimber1

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    Very good:thumbs:
     
  5. Amy.G

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    This is the scripture that I use most when debunking the name it and claim it myth.

    2 Cor. 12
    8 Concerning this thing I pleaded with the Lord three times that it might depart from me. 9 And He said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness." Therefore most gladly I will rather boast in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in needs, in persecutions, in distresses, for Christ's sake. For when I am weak, then I am strong.

    If there ever was a person that had faith in Christ, it was Paul. Yet, God did not heal or release him from whatever was afflicting him.
     
  6. rbell

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    [satire]

    In keeping with the "verse-plucking" and the misuse of Scripture so rampant in the "name it & claim it" garbage, I have been able to "Creatively" come up with a theme verse for them...straight out of the Bible (with onlly modest punctuation changes)...

    Name it & Claim it theme verse:

    "I would not have you, ignorant brethren..."



    :D
     
  7. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    The Word of Faith movement is not a Biblical movement.
    Faith needs an object--always.
    The object of our faith, for Biblical Christianity, must be Christ.



    HP: Let me play the WOF advocate for a minute. I say, OK, my object is Christ and He has promised me whatsoever things I ask I will receive. My faith is in Christ for that is how I became a believer, now He promises me everything that I ask for in faith. How would you answer such a one?
     
  8. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    HP: OK, let me play the WOF advocate with you. Sure God’s grace is sufficient, but the thing Paul was praying for that was a ‘thorn in his flesh’ was not a physical problem, but others that were troubling him in the flesh. To Paul, an infirmity was just someone else that was ‘in a sense’ acting upon him much like a disease.

    How might you answer such a response?
     
  9. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    HP: Ouch! That hurts even me! What a total lack of empathy in another’s loss. Clearly an unscriptural notion as well.



    HP: I am so very sorry for your loss. She was indeed heavens gain!

    You mention a point here that is about as far from scriptural as it gets to me. If we had to cry out loud as some would say in order to be praying correctly, one who could not speak could not ever have his or her prayers answered, and neither could one in a hospital bed with a trach tube down their throat, or one in a battle with the enemy close at hand, or…….the list goes on and on. This is not to say that there is not something to crying out load to God. It is just when we start making doctrine out of a specific approach that may or may not be able to be used by all in all circumstances is what is alarming to me. Scripture establishes no such doctrine.



    HP: It does pander to greed and even lust. If I want it and I am a Christian it is mine if I have faith, they claim.

    What if our children in their ignorance for something that we knew was not in their best interest or could be a stumbling block to others around them. If we loved them and others, would we just grant their request because in some twisted sense they thought we ‘owed them’ their desired request due to their relationship with their parents or because they were walking in obedience thus far? I hardly think so. I certainly hope that my Heavenly Father would withhold any and every request not in my best spiritual interest or that which would be in the best spiritual interest of those around me. Not ‘my will or desires’ be done, but Thou oh Lord!



    HP: I certainly believe that God has and does heal. Just the same, I do not accept the notion that it is in the atonement, and as such is necessitated accomplished on the account of my faith that it is in fact in the atonement.



    HP: How about the story of other WOF preachers in their trips to heaven, and the things they so readily tell us of what they saw?

    What about the animals in the garden not coming to life until Adam spoke their names? (or something like that)
     
  10. Amy.G

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    Well, having known a few of these types, the prayer of faith doesn't just have to do with sickness or disease. They believe that they can and should ask for wealth or material desires (cars, homes, whatever) and really anything their heart desires. This can also include asking God to rid them of someone who is a "thorn in their flesh". They just can't deal with that particular scripture. I quoted that scripture to someone who believes that doctrine and she was unable to respond to it.
    We don't know for certain what Paul's thorn was, so it could have been disease or just about anything. I have often thought it could have been his guilty feelings and self loathing for having hated the church and his part in the torture and murder of innocent Christians. But, that's just my thought. Don't ask me to prove it. :)
     
  11. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    HP: I believe I am starting to understand that I may indeed be the object of such prayers. Pray that God will give me wisdom.
     
  12. Amy.G

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    Are you being a thorn, HP? :laugh:

    I will pray for you. And don't forget:

    If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all liberally and without reproach, and it will be given to him. (James 1:5)
     
  13. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    Amy: Are you being a thorn, HP? :laugh:

    HP: I carry around a little pamphlet for my own reading entitled, "The Gift of the Thorn." If 'I' am a thorn, I am not sure they think of me as a 'gift.' :D
     
  14. Pete

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    :laugh: :applause: Just mad that I didn't think of it... :smilewinkgrin:
     
  15. Plain Old Bill

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    RBell, Thanks for the laugh,that is truly funny.:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
     
  16. Tom Butler

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    I have a friend who came out of the WoF movement. Her first doubt about WoF came when she realized that it didn't work. Her second came when she realized that the movement appealed basically to the flesh. Then she realized that the Positive Confession movement holds that people can actually command God to give them things (in faith, of course) and God has no choice but to give it to them.

    She thinks it's nothing more than warmed-over Gnosticism.
     
  17. Snitzelhoff

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    She's being generous. I was subjected to someone teaching WoF garbage a few years ago when I didn't know much about it, and something bugged me about what he had to say. Something about how there was spiritual power in our words to accomplish things and we had to watch what we said because our words could bring it to pass just didn't sit right with me. I realized later that there is another religion whose followers often believe something similar concerning spoken words:

    Witchcraft.

    That gave me much pause.

    Michael
     
  18. DHK

    DHK
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    Never does he promise everything you ask for, especially everything you want. If that were the case everyone would flock to be Christians. We would all be instant millionaires with perfect bodies, free of pain. But that is not what the Scripture teaches. Romans 8 teaches that we wait for "the redemption of our bodies," and will suffer pain until then .
    What does Christ promse us:
    He promises us suffering.
    Philippians 1:29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

    He promised us persecution:
    2 Timothy 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

    He promised that our battles would not be carnal but spiritual:
    2 Corinthians 10:3-4 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh: (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds)

    He promised that in comparison to our love for Christ we would hate our own relatives.
    Luke 14:26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

    He promised that once you decide to follow Christ you cannot turn back from following Him or you are not a suitable candiditate for the Kngdom of God.
    Luke 9:62 And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.

    He said that if you are not willing to sacrifice all that you have for him then you are not fit to be his disciple.
    Luke 14:33 So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.

    Jesus did not promise a life of luxury, a life of having every thing you want, even everything you pray for. He promised a life of sacrifice, suffering and persecution. He promised a life of self-denial expressed in these words: "Whosoever will come after me let him deny himself, take up his cross daily and follow me." The cross is an instrument for execution, such as Jesus died upon, and the two thieves on either side of him. It was the mode of death for criminals in that day. Unless you are willing to put your flesh to death each day; say no to your own desires; and yes to the desires of Christ and His Holy Spirit, you cannot be His disciple. Being a disciple of Christ is no picnic; it is rewarding; but it is not a picnic--not made for the faint of heart.
    Jesus was not wealthy. He lived in poverty all of his life. He is our example.
     
  19. Eric B

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    The immediate context of this is Christ's withering of the fig tree, and then His statement about moving mountains. If one doesn't think that these passages are often being removed from their original contexts today, then what about the fact that we cannot today perform such supernatural acts at will? This is of course, blamed on our "unbelief", meaning it's because nobody believes that they can actually do it, hence, this is what prevents such feats. (James 1:6 "ask in faith, nothing wavering" is cited, but it's context is "wisdom", v.5!) But then everyone must be "unbelieving" today, then, since no one 'has enough faith' to actually move a mountain or wither a tree with words!

    In verse 21 He says "all of you", meaning the disciples. This was not necessarily meant to be projected to every Christian who ever lives afterwards (and neither is 2 Timothy 3:12, because every single godly Christian has not suffered perseution for Christ). We have all applied many things to ourselves that were apparently not meant for us. This is proven by the fact that the WoF is able to use the passages, which seems to point to their belief. So both groups, projecting these passages onto us today, have to take one of two paths to get around the problem: just hold up other scriptures to contradict what these say (i.e. that Christians all must suffer) and then spiritualize the meaning of the "miracles" (i.e. "victory" over bad attitudes or emotions in that suffering); or to rely on hoaxes and claims that others do not have faith, in order to claim that those miracles are in fact being performed by them.
     
  20. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    HP: I agree. Could a clue as to what is granted lie in the words, “in my name?” Certainly to ask in his name would not be paramount to saying, “In Jesus name we pray” to the end of our prayers, although we certainly can and often say that. By saying that I in no way believe God is going to honor my request simply because I asked. As for me, when I ask anything of God I am asking as if to say, “God I know You will do what is best for Your kingdom, and I am believing that You will answer my request in such a way as to see your Kingdom come on earth even as it is in heaven and act in such as way as to be in my best interest and the best interest of all Your sentient beings. I trust You God to always respond in the way that you see is best, not exacting a response in line with what I request. You are God, I am but finite and prone to mistakes and error, even in the things I ask for.”



    HP: it would appear to me that a few are indeed becoming wealthy at the expense of a whole bunch of other ‘useful idiots,’ as well intentioned as they might be.




    HP: Oh how some like to cut out the part of self-denial and shorten the length of the cross they might in fact be required to bear. The only doctrine I can think of that come close to this level of pandering to the desires of the flesh to avoid any and all problems is the doctrine concerning a pre-tribulation rapture…. Although that is indeed another topic.


    HP: Well stated DHK.
     

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