Word Study G2525 kathistemi

Discussion in 'Bible Versions/Translations' started by Van, Aug 14, 2014.

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  1. Van

    Van
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    The Greek compound word literally means to set someone or something down over something else. Frequently it is translated as to “put in charge.” The word appears 22 times in scripture. Lets look at some of those cases where it is not translated “put in charge.”

    In six of these alternate translation choices, our word is translated as “appointed” and thus could also be translated as “put in charge.” Therefore, in 14 verses, the idea is clearly someone or some group puts someone in charge of something. I see no need to pull off the most frequent and literal translation choice.

    However, lets look at the eight remaining cases, where our word is translated as “made” or “set” or “render” or “escorted.”

    In three of the verses where our word is translated “made” the idea again is being “put in charge.” (Acts 7:10, 7:27 and 7:35). So now we have 17 out of 22 usages where put in charge clearly conveys the intended message.

    Now to the verses where it seems another shade of meaning is intended. To be “put in charge” is to change a person’s status, and thus a shade of meaning is to change a person’s status. For example, if you are friends with the world, you render yourself an enemy of God. Or, as in Romans 5:19 by one man’s disobedience, many were rendered sinners, but by One man’s obedience, many will be rendered righteous.

    And so our word has the intended meaning of altering, i.e. rendering a person as such and such, and this is the meaning found in Romans 5:19, James 4:4 and 2 Peter 1:8.

    One pesky problem when suggesting better translation choices to improve transparency and concordance, is that often when reducing overlap by avoiding words that translate other Greek words, the alternate may also be used to translate other Greek words. The old out of the frying pan, into the fire dilemma. The NASB translates other words as “render.” But, happily in this case, only in four verses (Matthew 22:21, Romans 2:6, Romans 13:7 and Revelation 22:12) with other versions translating those verses with repay or give repayment and the like.) And so, if we change Romans 5:19, James 4:4 and 2 Peter 1:8 to render, and then change Matthew 22:21, Romans 2:6, Romans 13:7 and Revelation 22:12 to repay or give repayment, then the overlap is eliminated.

    Which brings us to our last two verses, Acts 17:15 and James 3:6.

    Acts 17:15, Now those who escorted Paul brought him as far as Athens; and receiving a command for Silas and Timothy to come to him as soon as possible, they left.

    Most translations I looked at either go with escorted or conducted. Apparently, our Greek word is used elsewhere to indicate bringing someone or something through something, thus escorted or conducted is a lexicon meaning. However, it occurs to me, and to no other published source that I have found, that “put in charge” was the intended meaning. Those who had put Paul in charge brought him as far as Athens; and after receiving a command [from Paul who is in charge] for Silas and Timothy to come to him [Paul] as soon as possible, they left. It is probably best to stick with “escorted” but the other possibility is intriguing. Word Study can bring questions to mind, for which more study, prayer and meditation is required.

    James 3:6, And the tongue is a fire, the very world of iniquity; the tongue is set among our members as that which defiles the entire body, and sets on fire the course of our life, and is set on fire by hell.

    Here our word is translated as set. Other verses have placed. So our tongue is set or placed or put in an adversarial position with our other body parts or members. Every once in a while I come across a wing-ding of a verse that cries out for serious and deep study. This is such a verse. Lets just leave it that the tongue, or the tongue’s fire which spreads injustice, can alter the course of our life, taking us into the lake of fire in Gehenna.
     
    #1 Van, Aug 14, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 14, 2014
  2. Rippon

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    The word ruler does quite nicely. It would be cumbersome to phrase it put in charge in all those references.

    In Acts 7:10 all of the following have ruler : NET,ESV, NASB, WEB and NLT (among others).

    In Acts 7:27 all of the following have ruler : NET, ESV, NASB, NLT, HCSB, WEB (among others).

    In Acts 7:35 all of the following have ruler : NET, ESV, NASB, WEB and HCSB (among others).

    Romans 5:19 in the ESV,NASB, HCSB, NET and WEB (among other translations) have it rendered as made.

    James 4:4 in the NLT, ESV, NASB, NET, Weymouth and WEB have makes.
    In Romans 5:19 the ESV, NASB, HCSB, NET and WEB have it rendered as made.

    In James 4:4 the NLT, ESV, NASB, NET, Weymouth and WEB render it as makes.

    As for 2 Peter 1:8 the NASB alone has they render you. The WEB has make you. The ESV, HCSB and NET have keep you.

    The NET note has :Greek :"cause [you] not to become."
    Regarding Matthew 22:21, the ESV and NASB have render.
    The HCSB has give back.
    The NET and WEB has give.

    In Romans 2:6 ESV and NASB have render.
    The HCSB has repay.
    The NET has reward.
    The WEB has payback.

    The NET note for this reference has :"Or will render ,will recompense."

    For Romans 13:7, the ESV, HCSB, NET and Weymouth all have pay.
    The NASB has render. The WEB has give.

    Regarding Revelation 22:12, the NASB, NET, Weymouth, WEB and NLT all have reward. The ESV has recompense. The HCSB has repay.
     
  3. Rippon

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    Thus what?
    Therefore, the idea is clearly someone or some group puts someone in charge of something.
    [/quote]
    You haven't established any right to use the word therefore, especially considering what is below.
    Ah, that's the crux of your problem with these word study threads of yours. It occurs to you and no other published sources. But does that cause you any concern about your dogmatism? In no way, shape, matter or form.
     
  4. Van

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    It appears the goal of transparency and correspondence are not valued by some.

    The second quote applies to one verse, where I stuck with escorted, so the comment is bogus.

    All these responses devoted to the obvious, i.e. translations translate the same Greek word meaning in many different ways simply bolsters my position.

    If a person is put in charge, the idea is crystal, not cumbersome.
     
  5. Rippon

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    Very revealing statement about your methodology.
    That is just plain nonsensical Van. How can you transpose escorted into "those who had put Paul in charge" and make any sense? Then you weakly say :"and after receiving a command from Paul who is in charge."
    First of all, the "command" was more likely just a letter of instructions from him --not a command as we would use the word today. Secondly, "Paul who is charge" has the wrong tense. Thirdly, it's a very clumsy way of speaking. Fourthly, why repeat the phrase again?

    I know you finally relented and agreed with using escorted, but man Van --you go to some absurd lengths. And why, if you thought you had good reason to use your phraseology, would you suddenly drop it for escorted?Did you realize you didn't have a case? I'm just wondering about your line of reasoning.
     
  6. Van

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    When doing bible study, we consider alternate views, some gleamed from footnotes or commentaries, some arising from considering possible meanings that occur to us. I considered that the message might be "put in charge, rather than put some place, i.e. escorted or conducted, but finding no other published brothers advocating the same or similar view, I dropped it. As I have repeatedly said, critical thinking is necessary for bible study.

    I once read a study of Deuteronomy, and it presented the idea that the book could be viewed as a manual for leadership within the body. It occurred to some other reviewers, that the view was aberrant. However, we then did locate more than one commentary advocating similar views.

    It takes work and time and effort and prayer to actually study God's word.

    Here is my discarded alternate rendering of Acts 17:15, Those who had put Paul in charge brought him as far as Athens; and after receiving a command for Silas and Timothy to come to him as soon as possible, they left.

    Just because you say a view does not make sense to you, only suggests it may not be well put. The alternate possibility is you are attacking the view using the logical fallacy of an argument from personal incredulity.

    1) Why would Paul give them a letter to direct them to get Timothy and Silas, when they were face to face?

    2) "Those who had put Paul in charge" is in the past tense.

    3) Clumsy translation falls short of accuracy, clarity and elegance. If God's message was to explain why they took direction from Paul, then it is "escorted" that is clumsy.

    4) I repeated the phrase in brackets to demonstrate the reasoning used in favor of "put in charge." The actual rendering does not repeat the idea.
     
    #6 Van, Aug 15, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 15, 2014
  7. Deacon

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    kathistemi

    -a compound verb in Greek

    “kath” – from which we derive the English word ‘cathartic’ – means to purge

    “istemi” – related to Istar, the Babylonian goddess of love and war.
    In the ancient Greek language the word is used to denote the elimination of self and putting someone else in charge.

    Opps, never-mind, :tonofbricks:
    I thought we were playing Balderdash.

    Rob
     
  8. Van

    Van
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    This appears to be the intended meaning in 17 of the 22 usages in the NASB.
     
  9. Rippon

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    Well then, give some examples from your compilation.
     
  10. Van

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    You already addressed three of them in your post #2. Do you simply want to post that "put in charge" is cumbersome, and any other choice is better, which neglects transparency and correspondence? You have already made that point.

    Why not do a word study all on your own?

    Words have meanings, and the meanings have merit.
     
  11. Rippon

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    You need to provide your documentation for the other 14 instances where you insist that put in charge is the superior reading.
     
  12. Van

    Van
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    Do a word study and find them. Now if you do not know how do a word study, let me know and I will post an emoticon.
     
  13. Rippon

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    Don't cop out Van. You made the claim --now document.
     
  14. Van

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    Folks, it seemingly is very likely that Rippon, who has literally attacked every word study, does not even know how to do a word study. But given a verse he can look up various translations and then say any that differ from the one supported by word study is superior. Got to love them folks.
     
  15. Yeshua1

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    he is just asking you to show him how you came to your comclusions,,,
     
  16. Van

    Van
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    Hi Yeshua1, help him out, post the verses where G2525 appears. Just flip open your exhaustive concordance. Good golly miss molly.
     
  17. Yeshua1

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    I was not the person making the claim though!
     
  18. Van

    Van
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    You claimed some knowledge of word studies, saying they are flawed because of XYZ. Now it turns out, apparently, that you do not even own an exhaustive concordance, it seems you were misrepresenting yourself as someone who knew how word studies were done.
     
  19. Yeshua1

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    I have Logos 5Silver level software/Gramcord, so do have several ways to run and do a word study!
     
  20. Rippon

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    Now don't go into an avoidance mode Van.
     
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