Word Study G3724, “horizo”

Discussion in 'Bible Versions/Translations' started by Van, Aug 9, 2014.

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  1. Van

    Van
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    This Greek word appears, in slightly different forms, in eight verses. Its root meaning is to establish or designate conditions or boundaries. Modern translations translate it with a slew of different words, from ordain, to appoint, to designate, determine, decide, decree, declare, fix and set. If the circumstance refers to a past action of God as revealed in scripture, the idea seems to be “specified.” If a current action, then determined or declared captures the idea of the word. If the action is by people, then “decide or decided” seems like an accurate rendition of the intended word meaning.

    So on the surface, there is no sound reason to translate “horizo” by more than four different English words, in their various tenses.

    Lets take a look at the eight usages:

    Luke 22:22, For indeed, the Son of Man is going as it has been determined; but woe to that man by whom He is betrayed!”

    This verse not only says the Son of Man is departing, but says God has previously specified such an event. Luke uses nearly the same word in Acts 2:23. Thus “has been specified” brings to mind the question, where did God teach of the death of the Messiah and that He would be betrayed.

    Acts 2:23, this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death.

    Again, this verse refers to the plan of God as found in scripture, and so the “specified” plan and prior knowledge of God better conveys the whole message.

    Acts 10:42, And He ordered us to preach to the people, and solemnly to testify that this is the One who has been appointed by God as Judge of the living and the dead.

    Since this designation as “judge of the living and the dead” has been specified in scripture, “One who has been specified” brings the whole message into focus. See Isaiah 63 for one of the places where Jesus as judge is specified.

    Acts 11:29, And in the proportion that any of the disciples had means, each of them determined to send a contribution for the relief of the brethren living in Judea.

    Here we have people making a decision, so rather than specified, which refers to a past designation, “decided” conveys the idea with the most clarity.

    Acts 17:26, and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation,

    In this usage, since the times and boundaries of every nation has not been specified in scripture, “having determined” seems spot on.

    Acts 17:31, because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead.”

    Here, since scripture prophesied Jesus would arise from the dead, “has specified” conveys the full meaning. See Isaiah 53.

    Now all the forgoing usages were by Luke, but our word appears two more times, in Romans and Hebrews.

    Romans 1:4, who was declared the Son of God with power by the resurrection from the dead, according to the Spirit of holiness, Jesus Christ our Lord,

    Some translations, nameless forever more, say “was appointed” which has brought confusion to the minds of many, thinking the idea was Jesus became the Son of Man at the resurrection. This completely misses the actual idea. “Declared” captures the idea of evidence put forth, i.e. the resurrection proves Jesus is the Messiah. But what did change? Jesus came as the suffering servant, but upon His resurrection, having been given all authority, He is now the Son of God with power to judge and reward the living and the dead.

    Hebrews 4:7, He again fixes a certain day, “Today,” saying through David after so long a time just as has been said before,
    “TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE, DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS.”

    Lastly, “fixes a” could read “He again is specifying a certain day,
    These understandings of the underlying text, not only reduce the number of English words being used to translate the same Greek word meaning, but also reduce overlap where the same English word or phrase is used to translate more than one Greek word meaning. At least two other Greek words are translated as appointed or ordained.
     
  2. Rippon

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    Van, in Romans 1:3 the NIV renders the phrase:
    "appointed the Son of God in power."

    Your fav, the NET Bible, reads in like manner:
    "appointed the Son-of-God-in-power."

    In the NET notes it says that the Greek term "is used eight times in the NT, and it always has the meaning 'to determine, appoint.' Paul is not saying that Jesus was appointed the 'Son of God by the resurrection' but 'Son-of-God-in-power by the resurrection,' as indicated by the hyphenation. He was born in weakness in human flesh (with respect to the flesh,v.3) and he was raised with power. This is similar to Matt. 28:18 where Jesus told his disciples after the resurrection, 'All authority in heaven and earth has been given to me.' "
     
  3. Van

    Van
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    Some translations translate several different Greek words as appointed. But translating more than a dozen different Greek words into the same English word seems a bit much.

    BTW, the NET footnote agrees with my study of Romans 1:4 to a large degree.
     
  4. Rippon

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    You need to clean your specs Van. It is totally at variance with what you voiced in your op.
     
  5. Van

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    Here is the NET footnote 9 concerning Romans 1:4:

    I bolded the sentence that seems to run counter to my premise. However, note that the NET does not, repeat does not, always translate the Greek term ὁρίζω as either "to determine, appoint."

    Luke 22:22 - has been determined
    Acts 2:23 - predetermined
    Acts 10:42 - one appointed
    Acts 11:29 - decided
    Acts 17:26 - determining
    Acts 17:31 - designated
    Romans 1:4 - appointed
    Hebrews 4:7 - ordains

    So in fact, the very translation choice, designated that is said to miss the mark is used by the NET.

    The OP does address Jesus as having all authority after His resurrection, and therefore the NET footnote agrees with my study of Romans 1:4 to a large degree.
     
  6. Van

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    In Acts 10:42 The meaning of "the One who has been specified by God as judge of the living and the dead," is somewhat ambiguous. Is the idea that when Jesus returns he will judge those living at the time, and those who physically died beforehand? I doubt it. I think the idea may be Jesus will judge the living, referring to all those made alive together with Christ, and those who have not been placed in Christ and therefore are spiritually dead.
     
  7. Rippon

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    I beg to differ. Regarding Romans 1:4 you had said in your op that translations using was appointed has brought confusion to many. You had claimed that it would give people a completely wrong idea --that Jesus became the Son of Man at the resurrection.

    Why would people think that way, when the text says He was apponted the Son of God?
     
  8. Rippon

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    But it was your own translation! ;-)

    The word "appointed" is used in all seven versions of the NET Bible, NIV, NLT, HCSB, WEB, ESV and NASB. I think we can comfortably stick with that rendering.
     
  9. Rippon

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    The following use that terminology: NET Bible, WEB, ESV, HCSB and NLT.
    The NIV has "decreed".
    The following has the above:NET Bible, NASB, HCSB and NLT. The NIV has "deliberate plan." The ESV has "definite plan." The WEB has "determined counsel."
    I already covered this.
    The NET, NIV and NLT have the above. THe WEB, NASB, HCSB and ESV use "determined."
    The NET has "determining." The NLT,ESV, HCSB, NASB and WEB all render it as "determined." And the NIV has "appointed."
    Only the NET, has the above. The WEB has "ordained." The NIV,NLT,ESV, NASB, and HCSB have "appointed."
    The NET and NIV have the above. The ESV, NASB, HCSB, and WEB have it rendered as "declared."
    The NET has the above. The NIV and NLT have "set." The ESV "appoints." The NASB "fixes." The WEB "defines." And the HCSB has your choice of "specifies."

    Your preference of using the word specified in Luke 22:22, Acts 2:23, and Acts 10:42 is entirely unsuitable. It would distort and and water-down the actual meaning. And it would be tortuous English as well.

    Thanks be to God you aren't a Bible translator!
     
  10. Van

    Van
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    Thanks for pointing out the OP offers a different view. I did not see why you missed the difference between specified, begging the question specified where, and designated. If the circumstance refers to a past action of God as revealed in scripture, the idea seems to be “specified.” If a current action, then determined or declared captures the idea of the word. If the action is by people, then “decide or decided” seems like an accurate rendition of the intended word meaning.

    And yes, I see where I said Son of Man rather than the correct Son of God. I have fixed my copy, so in the future you will not have that nip pick to derail the topic.

    BTW, all of us are translators in this way, we translate what we read into our understanding.
     
    #10 Van, Aug 10, 2014
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  11. Van

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    Lets say a source language reads "Six pigs squealed when food arrived." But the translator chose to translate each of these different words into the same target language word. So it could read, "Blah blah blah blah blah blah." Note how the full message has been diminished by translating different source language words into one target language word.

    Therefore as a goal in translation, each source language word meaning should be translated into the same target language word or phrase. But to say ordained here, decided there, and appointed somewhere else does not create transparency. Readers would see differences where there are none in one case, one source word into multiple target words, and differences would be obliterated if several different source words were translated into the same target language word.
     
  12. Rippon

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    I have no idea what you are talking about Van.
    We interpret. And your interpretations are on the novel side.
     
  13. Rippon

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    I have noted that the above is pure foolishness.
    You have been taken to task by GreekTim, John of Japan, Jonathan Borland, jbh28 and preachingJesus, among others for your confusion on this and other matters Van.

    For instance JoJ had explained that one problem with concordance is that seldom does a given word in the TL [target language] have the same range of meaning in the Sl [source language].

    Words can mean more than one thing according to the context in which they are found.

    Jbh28 had said that words have multiple meanings --words have different nuances etc.

    Van, you can't reduce things down to a handful of a few English words when translating from the original word or phrase. There is such a thing as a semantic range of meaning.

    "The fact most words do not have a literal meaning is important for translators to recognize. It would be inappropriate to insist on using one English word for each word in the source language...bible translators must therefore be in a constant mode of interpretation, sensitive to which meaning senses of a word are being used...The translator must first determine the meaning of the Hebrew or Greek term in context. Then he or she must find an English word, phrase, or clause that reproduces that meaning as accurately as possible." (Taken from How to Choose a Translation for All Its Worth by Fee and Strauss -page 49)
     
  14. Van

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    One of the fictions pushed by liberals is that word meanings cannot be translated consistently. Note how multiple word meanings is not at issue, but consistently translating each of the multiple word meanings.

    We have identified four meanings, specify, determine, declare and decide, and yet many modern versions translate the same word meaning into differing English words. But Word study can reveal the underlying meaning of the intended message.

    For example, the Greek word refers to specifying some condition, such as the death of Jesus, in Isaiah 53, and this part of the message is revealed by Word Study.
     
  15. Rippon

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    "We", really? You alone have come up with them.
    You alone have come up with that, no other translation that I know of has that in its rendering in Luke 22:22, Acts 10:42,and Acts 2:23.
    As the NET note for Romans 1:4 says the primary meaning for the eight uses of the Greek word is determine or appoint.
    "The Greek word" is what? What are you talking about?
    Your last paragraph is puzzling. You'll have to rephrase and elaborate. It doesn't make any sense as is.
     
  16. Rippon

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    Acts 2:23a in the NIV "This man was handed over to you by God's deliberate plan and foreknowledge..."

    Yes, foreknowledge, as the NIV,ESV, HCSB, NET, NASB, Darby, Weymouth, WEB and most other English Bible versions render it --for a purpose --that's what it means. you have it a limp-wristed "prior knowledge" vantwist.

    But you, in your audacity, have said the following:
    "Again, this verse refers to the plan of God as found in scripture, and so the "specified" plan and prior knowledge of God beter conveys the whole message."

    Your wild rendering rends the meaning of the passage to pieces. God didn't merely have a "specified plan" Van.

    He had what has been variously called :
    a definite plan (ESV)
    determined plan (HCSB)
    pretermined plan (NET,NASB)
    determinate cousel (Darby)
    settled purpose (Weymouth)
    determined counsel (WEB)

    To read it as "the specified plan and prior knowledge of God" is horrendous and displays your heterodox theology. Thanks be to God the vanversion shall not see the light of day.
     
  17. Van

    Van
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    You have to be amazed at the animosity directed toward bible study.

    Had a specified plan been determined beforehand? Yes. Thus a specified plan is a predetermined plan, a determined plan, a definite plan, but it is more than those because it is a spelled out plan, a revealed plan, a prophetic plan, all of which is missed by the traditional translations.

    Our word, G3724, "horizo" has four usages in scripture:
    1) to specify or foretell in scripture. (Luke 22:22; Acts 2:23; 10:42; 17:37, Hebrews 4:7)

    2) God determining something (Acts 17:26)

    3) God declaring something (Romans 1:4)

    4) Humans deciding something. (Acts 11:29)​

    These are the four shades of meaning found in scripture.

    Next, it has been suggested these translation choices are out of the mainstream, however each usage for our word is translated by one or more versions as indicated. For example, the HCSB translates horizo as specifies, several as determine, several as declared, and several as decided. The effort to claim these choices are not mainstream is without merit.
     
    #17 Van, Aug 12, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 12, 2014
  18. Rippon

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    Your unique translational skills --or lack therof have been duly noted.

    Your word choice of specified is weak in most of those references. You don't like language dealing with God's decrees. It shows.
    Now you're adding "foretell" to the mix. I told you in previous post how wet you are. The last reference is the only one of the above in which one version, and one one, used "specifies" in its text --the HCSB.
    I have had no objection to that term.
    Although most English translations have that --some do not:
    YLT : marked out
    Darby : marked out
    Phillips : marked
    DRA : predestined
    WYC : ordained
    I've had no objection to that.
    Yes, most of your preferences are certainly out of the mainstream.
    You're funny. One version constitutes "mainstream" ? Get real.
    And I have debunked your silly claim in this and my other posts on this thread.
     
  19. Van

    Van
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    Now to specify beforehand is not to foretell. Liberals like to constantly redefine words for their purpose. Conservatives like to preserve the original intent of God's message by accurately presenting God's word.

    I know some believe to point out flaws in our versions is hate speech, but from the conservative viewpoint, it is speech motivated by love of the truth.
     
  20. Rippon

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    I ain't no liberal by any stretch of the imagination hombre.

    If you think you have been accurately presenting God's Word on the BB all these years --there are quite a few members who beg to differ with you.
     
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