Words for Roman Catholics to define

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by Ps104_33, Dec 12, 2004.

  1. Ps104_33

    Ps104_33
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    I have always said that the main difference between Roman Catholics and Bible Believers is how we define our terms. I would like to see how the Catholics on this board define these words.

    1. Grace
    2. Justification
    3. Sanctification
    4. Regeneration
    5. Repentance

    You will find as I always have here that when discussing salvation with RC's we end up talking past each other because we define these terms in totally different ways.

    Before any of the Baptists jump in lets give the Catholics a chance to define.
     
  2. gopchad

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    That's why I contend that the RC CHurch is the world's most popular cult. Redefinition of Bible terms, follow a man not God, etc. The marks are all there.

    Chad
     
  3. grace56

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    gopchad, your statement is what bothers me the most, if it's weren't for the Catholic Church we would not have a Bible. I know you will say that it's not true but read some of the early church fathers and you'll find out how wrong you are. If the Catholic church is a "cult" then we are nothing but a cult, cut off from the cult!

    grave56
     
  4. Bro. James

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    Cult from a cult--

    Only if one follows a defrocked priest or others from other cults--Joseph Smith, Jim Jones, etc, etc.

    Catholicism is one of the oldest cults in the world.

    The Church that Jesus Christ is building has never been a part of Rome--never will be.

    Get out of the Catholic Library--they burned most of the books about Truth.

    The Book of Books still abides--the blood of the saints is stark testimony.
     
  5. Littledrummerboy

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    Brother James,

    Do you care to qualify your statements concernig the burning of truth? I will get back to you on the terms, but you are correct; the terms is the largest problem we face in our dialogue.

    Pax Christi,

    Stephen
     
  6. Ps104_33

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    grace56,
    just curious. Would you explain to me why you are not a Roman Catholic? Also, What makes you think that the early church fathers would be in agreement with the Roman church.
     
  7. grace56

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    I've done research on when and where the New Testement came from. I sugest you do the same, you too will be suprised as I have been. Who set up the Council at Hippo and where did they send the cannon to be authorised? Now go and learn.

    grace56
     
  8. Ps104_33

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    In all fairness my friend. I have been down this road many times. I am firmly rooted in what I believe but appartently you are not . Now, I asked you a question and you answered it with a question. Not the way it works. I will try again. ;)

    Go ahead.
     
  9. Littledrummerboy

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    Well, here we go. For your answers, I went no farther than the Catholic Encyclopedia: www.newadvent.org Because the website itself does such a great job in explaining the positions, I will just give you the web address to the articles. I think they will be of incredible use to people on this site. A few things before I post them, however. When dealing with the article on Grace: remember the church has 2000 years of history. There will be, therefore, many answers, some of which seem contradictory, but because they all have biblical support, as well as teaching throughout the centuries, to believe in any one of them is considered Catholic. Also, some knowledge of Aristotilean philosophy, esspecially as told through St. Thomas Aquinas, this would help in the language of "material" and "formal" which are 2 of the 4 modes of matter in Aristotle. Also the language of primary cause and secondary cause is very Thomist, who was heavily influenced by Aristotle. That being said, here are the articles...enjoy!!

    Grace: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06710a.htm (there are several different modes of Grace, but this one best describes the Church's views...they begin about half way down under the heading "Thomism").

    Justification: "A biblio-ecclesiastical term; which denotes the transforming of the sinner from the state of unrighteousness to the state of holiness and sonship of God. Considered as an act (actus justificationis), justification is the work of God alone, presupposing, however, on the part of the adult the process of justification and the cooperation of his free will with God's preventing and helping grace (gratia praeveniens et cooperans). Considered as a state or habit (habitus justificationis), it denotes the continued possession of a quality inherent in the soul, which theologians aptly term sanctifying grace. Since the sixteenth century great differences have existed between Protestants and Catholics regarding the true nature of justification. As the dogmatic side of the controversy has been fully explained in the article on GRACE, we shall here consider it more from an historical point of view." http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08573a.htm

    Regeneration: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12714a.htm

    Repentance: This one is closely tied to the regeneration article, as well as the article on the "Sacrament of Reconsiliation," so I will post the latter of the two here. http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12714a.htm

    I hope you enjoy these articles. They are well written in a good easy-to-read prose.

    Pax Christi,

    Stephen
     
  10. Ps104_33

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    Typical Roman Catholic double-speak. It is the work of God alone but man has to have a part.
     
  11. Littledrummerboy

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    Psalm,

    Such a broad brush with which you paint! This is not a Catholic idea alone, but also, Anglican, Episcopelian, most Weslyan thelogoy, and Arminian. Did you read the entire article, or just the little bit I pasted? Methinks I know the answer.

    Pax Christi,

    Stephen
     
  12. Bro. James

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    Burning The Truth--

    Satan knows the effect The Word of God has on the hearts of men. He has gone to great lengths to destroy the manuscripts, translations, translators and believers. Read the accounts of Wycliffe, Tyndale, and others. See also "History of the Evangelical Churches of the Valleys of Piedmont", by S. Morland. "Christians" killing Christians--strange.

    She has been assaulted; but the Bride of Christ is still the pillar and ground of The Truth. The gates of hell have not prevailed.

    Selah,

    Bro. James
     
  13. Littledrummerboy

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    Brother James,

    I see what you are saying...of course the writings of Wycliff and Huss were outlawed not because of their content, but because they were not evaluated by learned church men to make sure that the translations were accurate...this is similar to the Gallileo account. The church was the law of the day, and while their meathods are not PC by today's standards, it is not fair to derail them for it looking back 700 plus years. That is called presentmindedness and it is not intellectually honest.

    Pax Christi,

    Stephen
     
  14. Bro. James

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    Learned church men--

    Were they the same ones who taught that the universe revolved a flat earth?

    The scripture does not teach such things.

    Just because a group has political and spiritual control does not make them learned nor correct.

    The "spiritual curtain" is coming down--much like the "iron curtain"--it is a slow process.

    The Bride of Christ has survived the onslaughts of Hades. Praise the Lord.

    Selah,

    Bro. James
     
  15. Littledrummerboy

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    Brother James,

    Apples and oranges my friend. Matters of emperical study and matters of theological study are not the same; your analogy is weak. Furthermore, Pythagorus proved the Earth's spherical shape 6 centuries before Christ, and all believed in it after than, save for the truly unlearned peasent class whose only fault was that they could not read...something most of the world could not...the Roman empire itself only had about a 10 percent litteracy rate. Also, ironic that you use the iron curtain similie as its fall was aided greatly by the Bishops of Rome and Constantinople (West and East). You are right, however, the Bride of Christ has many a time survived the onslaughts of Hell, and will continue to do so as is the promise of Matt 16.

    Pax Christi,

    Stephen
     
  16. Bro. Curtis

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    :rolleyes:

    Yup. And we would be without such vile pagan practices as charging poor people to pray to plastic dolls. You missed my brilliant expose of the Bascilla built in South America, where the Pope (whoever was pope in the 1940's) built a church to house a doll that's been proclaimed to be the patron saint of floods. But do a google search of the "Virgin of Zappopan", or the "Virgin of Guadalupe". It certainly opened my eyes. I looked around for it, but perhaps the Webmaster saved it in his own private files for viewing later. The gist is, the RCC charges folks, who line up arount the building, to come pray to these plastic dolls. Pagan idolatry endorsed by the RCC. Indefensable.

    Pillar of truth my foot. The gates of hell didn't have to prevail over the RCC. The RCC opened them up themselves.

    And I tired of arguing against the RCC long ago. I will not enter into debate, 'cept to say that your claim of God not being able to preserve his word without human help is crazy.
     
  17. Littledrummerboy

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    Curtis,

    Not worth more of a response than this one which is to tell you as much.

    Pax Christi,

    Stephen
     
  18. Ps104_33

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    Methinks you judge. I've had the new advent site on my favorites list for a few years and have read much of what your church believes. As far as the Anglican and episcopalian church they are Roman catholic without papal authority.
     
  19. Bro. Curtis

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    Yup. I expected as much. This practice has no defense, so you cannot offer one. You have my prayers.
     
  20. Bro. Curtis

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    My apologies to Ps104_33, I'll bow out, so's not to derail this thread any more than I have.
     

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