works is believing a work?

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by lets_reason_toghether, Dec 13, 2004.

  1. lets_reason_toghether

    lets_reason_toghether
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    Everyone,

    I hope I got your attention, and the reason I ask this is because of the following scripture...

    John 6;28 ¶ Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
    29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

    in natural life it is conception (natural life is given) then after a time and nurishment natural life is manifested or made known which testifies of a life that started before..

    So if a person believes would it be an evidece and not a pre-requisite to eternal salvation?

    John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

    Paul didn't ask for it. John the baptist had joy (a fruit of the Spirit) nothing can produce the fruit of the spirit but the Spirit

    john 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

    1Jo 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

    IF a person has faith (which is a fruit Gal 5:22-23) and faith is gift of God (eph 2:8-10) and not all men have the gift of faith (2 th 3:2)

    to include another conception before action:

    JOhn 1:12-13
    12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
    13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

    Gal22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
    23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

    8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
    9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

    2th 3:1 ¶ Finally, brethren, pray for us, that the word of the Lord may have free course, and be glorified, even as it is with you:
    2 And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith.


    Now the reason I say this is that a person must be born again, and belief is an evidence of spritual life, it is not causitive. When a person is born again whether they are in the womb like john the baptist or on the road to damascus like Paul they are born by the irresitable grace of God.

    But we are saved by grace not by works... so is beleiveing a work? Christ I think said t was... so that work didn't get us born again it only is evidence of eternal life.

    Not all men have faith it is a gift of God. And since God gives faith to his beloved (elect) whether they are a fetus or a 80 year old man. The gift of faith by biblical definition has the object of God. we can trust chariots, money, horses, men and to those born again, Christ. but before a person can trust they must beleive and before they beleive they must know and this knowledge is divine and this is the unction that is given in the new birth by the grace of God.

    You can't trust what you do not know.

    this is enough to open up discussion. The new birth is creation and must be created not morphed, not evolve but created and this is by the voice of the Son of God (jOhn 5:25-26) and John 6:63.

    People beleive in Christ because they are already born again.. and the Savoir said it was a work, yes a work of God but a work nonetheless. The work is manifestation of life not the cause.

    blessings,

    brother Larry
     
  2. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest
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    Brother Larry,
    A person MUST be born again to receive everlasting life. Belief is not an evidence of spiritual life, NO ONE CAN SEE YOUR BELIEF! NO ONE KNOWS WHETHER YOU BELIEVE OR NOT. The evidence of your belief is your actions, that which you do, we always act according to our belief, therefore, belief is Causative. It is through belief that we arrive at faith. There is no record that John the Baptist was born again "in the womb". He was a man of destiny appointed by God to a specific mission, that of being the forerunner of the Christ! He could not do anything else from the womb! God's grace is not irresistible! Millions resist God and succeed....all the way to the lake! Rev 20:15.

    False! We are NOT saved by grace, we are saved THROUGH FAITH in God. Grace is necessary, for without God behaving in accordance with HIS GRACE toward man, man's first sin would be his last! The wage for sin is death! Grace also permits man the time to hear the word and believe, which is, come to faith.

    Your question: Is believing a work? NO! reading, hearing, learning, etc., are work, but believing is not!

    Bro. Larry, I'm in my sixth decade of life, and in that time, I have never met a person who has 0-zero,nada, nul, absence of, faith! Every living human has faith in something. Every human has faith...period. It is the object of faith that determines what faith does. Also, every living human has but one faith! However, human faith can have many objects, that is, every human can believe in many things. So it is not true that any man lacks faith

    Why not? We all do it in our everyday lives.

    The "new birth" is not a creation, it is a change, a renewal, a rebirth...hence, Born Again! It is a change of "persuasion" in the human spirit brought about by the the word of God as illuminated by the Holy Spirit.

    No Larry, People believe in Jesus Christ to be born again! The change of persuasion, or belief, in the human spirit is the result of the "Presence of Jesus" in the human spirit placed there through belief! The scripture you refer to tells us that the work of God is that we believe! (God's effort is toward our belief in Him) In God's work, He gives us His Word, He gave us His son, He gave us his Holy Spirit, and He Gives us His Church beginning with the Apostles who walked with Jesus. All of them have worked IN US to change our persuasion, our belief, from that of unbeliever to believer. Thus the Work of God that we believe, is an accomplished work in those of us who do believe! The manifestation of life in us is the works we do resulting from the work God did in us.
     
  3. lets_reason_toghether

    lets_reason_toghether
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    Brethern,

    I posted some thoughts on a baptist board and here is a rubuttle.. he has taken excerts from mine and my response is in () or not you should be able to parse through it

    Brother Larry,
    quote: Now the reason I say this is that a person must be born again, and belief is an evidence of spritual life, it is not causitive. When a person is born again whether they are in the womb like john the baptist or on the road to damascus like Paul they are born by the irresitable grace of God.
    Please explain the statement you made at the clost of you email and comapre with this first statement

    "People believe in Jesus Christ to be born again!"

    "A person MUST be born again to receive everlasting life."

    a person is a beleiver then he is born again then a receiever then he has eternal life... if that be true then there is no conntection to the new birth and eternal life and that is contrary to the scriptures. This also means that people can be born again, and if they do not recieve everlasting life.. is that true? If so they failed to complete there own process, and then GOd can't judge Himself (the spirit of God that you posses when you are born again) must remove it [the holy spirit] then send and idividual to hell. this as you have stated very well that you think being born again is a process.

    Here is what Christ said the new birth is

    john 3 7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. (didn't say get, it said be"
    8 The wind (spirit of GOd) bloweth where it listeth (soveriently), and thou hearest the sound thereof (effects of the wind), but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

    (So Christ stated that a person is born again like the wind hitting him, he doesn't ask but he can tell the effects of it. The wind blows then the tree moves, the tree doens't move to make the wind blow.

    also you can't tell where it comes from or where it goes. You can tell where a preacher goes and you go... )


    the process is elect then born again (this garanteed according to the everlasting coventan of Grace) then a believer then a disciple then a christian. the previous three are not guaranteed.

    A person MUST be born again to receive everlasting life. Belief is not an evidence of spiritual life, NO ONE CAN SEE YOUR BELIEF! NO ONE KNOWS WHETHER YOU BELIEVE OR NOT (Why does everyone else need to see). The evidence of your belief is your actions, that which you do, we always act according to our belief, therefore, belief is Causative (it may be causetive to determine if we have faith but we mucst be born again before we can have the fruit of Faith.. no Spirit no sonship, No Spirit no fruit). It is through belief that we arrive at faith (arrive at faith???). There is no record that John the Baptist was born again "in the womb" (How can he recongnize the Savior and have joy(a fruit of the Spirit, no Sprirt no Fruit). He was a man of destiny appointed by God to a specific mission, that of being the forerunner of the Christ! He could not do anything else from the womb (aren't all men conceived in sin and dead to God?)! God's grace is not irresistible! Millions resist God and succeed....all the way to the lake! Rev 20:15 -> When was the book of Life written?

    quote: But we are saved by grace not by works... so is beleiveing a work? Christ I think said t was... so that work didn't get us born again it only is evidence of eternal life.
    False! We are NOT saved by grace, we are saved THROUGH FAITH in God. Grace is necessary, for without God behaving in accordance with HIS GRACE toward man, man's first sin would be his last! The wage for sin is death! Grace also permits man the time to hear the word and believe, which is, come to faith. (not everyman is given a time to hear another two legged sinner present the Gospel.. please give me chapter and verse; expereince tells me they do not)

    Your question: Is believing a work? NO! reading, hearing, learning, etc., are work, but believing is not! John 6:28-29. also if reading hearing and learning are works.. that is a lot works before one is born again


    quote: Not all men have faith it is a gift of God. And since God gives faith to his beloved (elect) whether they are a fetus or a 80 year old man. The gift of faith by biblical definition has the object of God. we can trust chariots, money, horses, men and to those born again, Christ. but before a person can trust they must beleive and before they beleive they must know and this knowledge is divine and this is the unction that is given in the new birth by the grace of God.

    Bro. Larry, I'm in my sixth decade of life, and in that time, I have never met a person who has 0-zero,nada, nul, absence of, faith! Every living human has faith in something. Every human has faith...period. It is the object of faith that determines what faith does. Also, every living human has but one faith! However, human faith can have many objects (the bible defines faith, that is humanistic and if person has biblical faith "the gift of GOd" it is all ready in God.), that is, every human can believe in many things( expecpt the Gospel or spirituall things...2nd 2:12-16 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
    14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

    So it is not true that any man lacks faith (plase read 2th 3:1-3 and if this isn't the fruit of faith, please tell me what faith is spoken of here.

    also if everyone has faith (the fruit of the SPirit) then they must have the Spirit, so God must remove the Holy SPirit before sending them to hell or everlasting fire? He can't deny Himself.

    quote: You can't trust what you do not know.
    Why not? We all do it in our everyday lives. what do not see that you trust? not know from fucntion or activity... do you trust your chair or computer?

    quote: this is enough to open up discussion. The new birth is creation and must be created not morphed, not evolve but created and this is by the voice of the Son of God (jOhn 5:25-26) and John 6:63.
    The "new birth" is not a creation hmmm....


    2co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

    Eph 2:10 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

    john 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.


    (Are you a spriitual eveolutionist? )

    , it is a change, a renewal, a rebirth...hence, Born Again! It is a change of "persuasion" in the human spirit brought about by the the word of God as illuminated by the Holy Spirit.

    please explain persuaion to me and show me the scriptures that teach that.

    quote: People beleive in Christ because they are already born again.. and the Savoir said it was a work, yes a work of God but a work nonetheless. The work is manifestation of life not the cause.

    No Larry, People believe in Jesus Christ to be born again! (what about john 1:12-13) The change of persuasion, or belief, in the human spirit is the result of the "Presence of Jesus" in the human spirit placed there through belief! The scripture you refer to tells us that the work of God is that we believe! (God's effort is toward our belief in Him) In God's work, He gives us His Word, He gave us His son, He gave us his Holy Spirit (only to HIs coventant children), and He Gives us His Church beginning with the Apostles who walked with Jesus. All of them have worked IN US (including the apostles.. sick) to change our persuasion, our belief, from that of unbeliever to believer. Thus the Work of God that we believe, is an accomplished work in those of us who do believe! The manifestation of life in us is the works we do resulting from the work God did in us.
     
  4. LaymansTermsPlease

    LaymansTermsPlease
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    Acts 16
    But Paul cried with a loud voice, saying, Do thyself no harm: for we are all here. Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas, And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.


    Hmmm, odd that it doesn't say "you are saved, so now you will believe". [​IMG]
     
  5. lets_reason_toghether

    lets_reason_toghether
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    Saved from what? what does the text say? so does the jailers family saved through their dad's beleif? or are they [His family] delivered from many troubles of this life if their dad is saved in practice of worship of God.

    the Gospel is for those who have been born again, becasue they are the only ones' who can spiritually discern the message.

    Also there is difference between the "work" of reconcilation which Christ finished and the "word" (the gospel) of reconcilation.

    I say gain, from the text what is he saved from?

    Did it say from wrath of God? No, wo what did it say... many times the Gospel preacher can deliver one from the cares and trouble of this live but one one can deliver from spriitual death and that is Christ

    Brother Larry
     
  6. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest
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    The Gospel is given to common ordinary sinners so that they can have something and some one to believe in who has the power to save them! It is the Gospel that save you whether or not you are willing to acknowledge it. YOU weren't born "saved"!
     
  7. lets_reason_toghether

    lets_reason_toghether
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    Yes but whena person is born of the direction operation of the Holy Ghost he is born again, so is every one that will be in heavan. They have to be in heavan the same way. When they are born agian they are saved from death in sins to life in Christ. God's coventant sheep will have spiritual life but before He quickens them they are like the children of wrath even as others. (eph 2:1-2)

    In elction God chose a people to be holy and blameless before him in love

    ON the tree the elect have their sins paid for By Christ,

    at somepoint in their natural lives all those Chosen will be given spiritual life by the quickening power of God. OT and NT.

    Every is born again the same way...

    Gospel beleif is for those born after the cross.

    Because in Galations Paul speaks that the isrealistes where shut up to the faith which aftereard would be revealed. Not everyone in heavan has heard the Gospel but we are all sinners by nature OT and NT and have the same debt to God. It is a tremendous blessing to have the precious Gospel it has a it's limitations.

    I know I wansn't born saved but you still didn't asnwer the question what the jailer and his family was saved from there are more than one salvation spoken of the new testimant

    and all of them tdo not mean everlasting fire or wrath fo God.


    For instance Mark 16: He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved. what is he saved from? This person has been delviered from teh wrath to come by the blood of Christ,
    but

    he that beleiveth and is baptitzed is saved from not from filth from the flesh but a clear conscience toward God

    1Pe 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,)by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

    Also salvations do not mean eternal damnation.


    Also if the Gospel is the only agent that God has to save sinners... and looking 2Co 4:4

    In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

    then did Chris destroy the devil or not.. If the ospel is the saving agent then it is a weak one if Satan can stop it.

    His son shall save His people from their sins (matt 1:21) ...

    the Gospel is light: exposes what is already there. The gospel doesn't give life. if the Gospel is the saving agent then people in the OT got into heavan in a differnt way.

    Larry
     

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