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"Works Religion"

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Claudia_T, Jan 18, 2007.

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  1. Claudia_T

    Claudia_T New Member

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    You know, I believe that if James and Titus were on this Board today they'd be accused of "promoting a Works Religion"

    .... What do you think?

    and while we are at it, do you think maybe that instead of posting 10 Bible verses that say we are saved by grace that we could actually realize that what James and Titus are saying is **gasp** equally true?? do you think there needs to be some harmonizing of the different passages rather than just throwing out what you dont like to read?

    do you care at all about what James and Titus said? because Titus just told you that some WHO PROFESS TO KNOW GOD are in BIG TROUBLE!! how do we know this? BY THEIR WORKS!

    And then there is James who goes and tells us well can our faith SAVE US if we dont have works? what are YOU saying? Yes??? No??? only one answer allowable here.


    Well, whats the matter with these two? Dont they know ANYTHING about Faith?


    Ti:1:16: They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.


    James 2
    14: What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
    15: If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
    16: And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
    17: Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
    18: Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
    19: Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
    20: But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
     
    #1 Claudia_T, Jan 18, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 18, 2007
  2. Chemnitz

    Chemnitz New Member

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    Both passages are simply saying "put your money where your mouth is," neither passage is calling for a salvation based on works. Rather they are saying that faith will produce good works.

    P.S. Titus is the recipient of the epistle which bears his name. Paul is the writer.
     
    #2 Chemnitz, Jan 18, 2007
  3. Claudia_T

    Claudia_T New Member

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    yes and what if you fail to produce those good works? what does this mean?
     
    #3 Claudia_T, Jan 18, 2007
  4. Chemnitz

    Chemnitz New Member

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    What it means is that until the final day we are all still sinners in need of a savior, for no one can produce good works. I do not look to my works for proof that I am saved. I look to the author of my salvation for the proof that I am saved.
     
    #4 Chemnitz, Jan 18, 2007
  5. Claudia_T

    Claudia_T New Member

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    "And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed." Galatians 3:8.
    [FONT=Times New Roman, Times]"Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham." Galatians 3:7.[/FONT]

    Why did God make His promise to the seed of Abraham? "Because that Abraham obeyed My voice, and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes and My laws." Gen. 26:5.
    ​
    and we all know that the book of James 2 tells us if we dont have works then our so-called faith is useless...

    James 2
    17: Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
    18: Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
    19: Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
    20: But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
    21: Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
    22: Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
    23: And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
    24: Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
    25: Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
    26: For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.



    Why do you think John the Baptist said to bring forth fruits that are meet for repentance? He then said basically dont be calling Abraham your father if you dont, because its a lie and that the tree would be cut down and tossed into the fire, obviously meaning "Hell":

    Matthew 3:
    7: But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
    8: Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
    9: And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
    10: And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
    11: I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
    12: Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.


    speaking of Abraham again, Jesus says yet again, dont be claiming Abraham as your father if you are the servant of sin and he said that if you were truly the sons of Abraham you would prove that by doing the works of Abraham.

    Luke:
    31: Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
    32: And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
    33: They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
    34: Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
    35: And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
    36: If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
    37: I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.
    38: I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.
    39: They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
     
    #5 Claudia_T, Jan 18, 2007
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  6. Claudia_T

    Claudia_T New Member

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    Now can anybody please tell me why they believe that God is going to tell anybody who was acting like the people who Jesus was talking to about Abraham and doing the works of Abraham... anything DIFFERENT when they are standing at the gates of heaven wanting to come in?

    Is God going to tell them something DIFFERENT than Jesus did here?


    Because I dont know about the rest of you but I cannot imagine God doing any differently than Jesus did. I personally dont think Jesus was kidding.


    James 2:
    24: Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

    Now WHY does anybody want to say we are justified by FAITH ALONE when the Bible CLEARLY teaches differently. AND WHY would anybody accuse someone who merely says the same thing as is being said here of "promoting a works based religion"? Was James, Jesus, John the Baptist all "promoting a works based religion"?

    Claudia
     
    #6 Claudia_T, Jan 18, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 18, 2007
  7. rbell

    rbell Active Member

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    Works do not save us. Works are the outward evidence of an inward change.

    The branch does not live because it produces fruit. It lives because it is grafted into the Vine. And that relationship produces fruit.
     
    #7 rbell, Jan 18, 2007
  8. Shiloh

    Shiloh New Member

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    Mr. Chemnitz ...............................You are right on the money.

    How do you get Saved? Eph 2:8, 9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

    How are we Kept Saved? 1Pe 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

    What happens to us if we sin "after" we are Saved? 1Jo 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

    If we sin and die before we get a chance to repent, will we still go to Heaven? Rom 8:35-39 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? [shall] tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
     
    #8 Shiloh, Jan 18, 2007
  9. Claudia_T

    Claudia_T New Member

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    I didnt say works save us. Im saying what happens if the evidence of some inward change ISNT THERE?
     
    #9 Claudia_T, Jan 18, 2007
  10. Shiloh

    Shiloh New Member

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    I didnt say works save us. Im saying what happens if the evidence of some inward change ISNT THERE? by guess who

    This is exactly what you are saying. You keep asking the same questions over and over again, and everyone answers them over and over again. Seems to me soon the truth would get through your hard head!
     
    #10 Shiloh, Jan 18, 2007
  11. rbell

    rbell Active Member

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    and we both know the answer to that.

    My issue is...we should be very careful about making the determination, "Oh, there's been no change in that person." That's a loaded judgement.

    My other issue is...I'm still waiting for the list of sins that "no Christian could possibly commit." Can I understand how a Christian could commit some sins? Not really...but only God knows their heart. And the Bible only puts one sin in a category unto itself--Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.

    Having said all that...no doubt: our works should reflect Whom we serve. On that we completely agree.
     
    #11 rbell, Jan 18, 2007
  12. donnA

    donnA Active Member

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    We are not commanded to work for our salvation, but becasue of our salvation. No scripture opposes another scripture, all scripture works in harmony with each other when properly interpeted and ued in context with each other.
     
    #12 donnA, Jan 18, 2007
  13. J. Jump

    J. Jump New Member

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    No they wouldn't because they would tell us what we "should" already know and that is the context of these letters is not even eternal (spiritual) salvation.

    Because Christendom has a poor understanding of what eternal (spiritual) salvation is these days we get two or three fundamental flaws when it comes to works and what they mean and how they fit in.

    If we would understand that eternal (spiritual) salvation is based on faith in the substitutionary death and shed blood of Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God, Who died in our place because of our sin then we could get off on a correct start.

    If we could see that eternal (spiritual) salvation is a one-time event and not a life long process we could get off on a correct start.

    Once the Holy Spirit has convicted me that Jesus Christ died and shed His blood in my place and I believe that eternal (spiritual) salvation is a complete/done deal at that very moment, whether I ever produce a good fruit or not.

    Fruit production is a matter of discipleship and not a matter of eternal (spiritual) salvation.

    So now we get to our fundamental flaws. One is that some people think you have to have works mixed with faith in order to be saved. That is a front loaded works-based salvation which the Bible teaches against.

    The second is that there are those that think one can be saved via faith alone and/or faith and works and when the works stop they stop be saved or loose their salvation. Again the Bible teaches against this notion.

    And third you have those that say works are the test to see if one is saved or not. If one is saved they "will" produce good fruit. And they would say that if good fruit is not produced then they were never saved to begin with. Or if one persists in bad fruit then one was never saved to begin with. That is a back-loaded works-based salvation.

    Again what we have to do is understand that eternal (spiritual) salvation is based on faith alone in the finished works of Jesus Christ alone, and that at the very moment faith is placed upon those finished works and the sinner believes what God has said regarding His Son, The Lamb eternal (spiritual) salvation is a completed act that can never be reversed.

    Works then become a matter of discipleship or the Christian walk. But what we also have to remember is that we are born again as babies. For those of us that are parents we can understand what this means. That means the baby is helpless, knows very little, must be taught and left to their own accords would never grow, would eventually die, and certainly wouldn't choose to do the right thing without being taught.

    For some reason we think that people once they are saved are saved in such a matter that they should automatically start doing that which is right, but the Bible teaches us something clearly different.

    Ephesians tells us that we are saved unto good works that were forordained that we "should" walk in them. We always forget that key work. We SHOULD walk in good works. Unfortunately that doesn't mean we WILL walk in them. Again the Bible is filled with teachings that there are going to be those that don't produce good fruit even though they are saved.
     
    #13 J. Jump, Jan 18, 2007
  14. Claudia_T

    Claudia_T New Member

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    Just before we go any further, we already know that we are saved because of the atonement of Christ alone, we already know that we can only do good works by faith and through the power of God, etc. and so forth.

    BUT if we are NOT producing that fruit, those good works, THAT is what I am asking. What does that mean and what will happen when it comes to your salvation?



    and do you think Jesus is just kidding? and is JESUS promoting a "works based Religion"?


    Jn:5:29: And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.


    Rv:20:12: And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.


    Matthew 25:
    31: When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
    32: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
    33: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
    34: Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
    35: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
    36: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
    37: Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
    38: When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
    39: Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
    40: And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
    41: Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
    42: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
    43: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
    44: Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
    45: Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
    46: And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
     
    #14 Claudia_T, Jan 18, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 18, 2007
  15. J. Jump

    J. Jump New Member

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    Great questions, but the last part needs some clarification. By salvation do you mean our eternal (spiritual) salvation? If that is your question then I would say nothing happens to our eternal salvation or our eternal destiny.

    However, unrepentant sin does not go unaccounted for. We will stand at the judgement seat of Christ and we will have our works tried by fire. We will be rewarded for the gold, silver and precious stones that withstand the fire of judgement and we will be rewarded for the wood, hay and stubble that is consumed.

    The problem with modern-day Christendom is that too often we look at Scripture through modern-day glasses. And when some one says reward the automatic thought is always postive. But in Scripture reward is not always positive. It is basically the idea of wages. You will be paid according to what you deserve. Gold, silver, precious stones deserve this and wood, hay and stubble deserve that.

    Your questions, while they don't take up a lot of space to ask, are quite complex in nature. That being said I don't think this venue will do justice for your search. And so if you would like some extremely detailed and indepth study material I would be more than happy to pass it along to you.
     
    #15 J. Jump, Jan 18, 2007
  16. J. Jump

    J. Jump New Member

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    You added while I was typing :)

    No I don't think Jesus was kidding. He did not have a single idle word, because we are told that every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God has life in it. We must seek this life through the guidance of the Holy Spirit, Who will lead us and guide us into ALL Truth if we will allow Him too.

    Sometimes that Truth is easy to digest, and sometimes it is very difficult ie the Jews walking away when they were told they were going to have to eat His flesh and drink His blood.
     
    #16 J. Jump, Jan 18, 2007
  17. billwald

    billwald New Member

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    Eph 2:8, 9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

    What does "through" mean?

    How many good works would be done by Baptists if they were hidden from God?

    Why do athiests do good works? Is it not the same reason that Bapitsts do good works?
     
    #17 billwald, Jan 18, 2007
  18. FundamentalOnly!

    FundamentalOnly! New Member

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    If I have great Faith, yet I do not have any works, am I still saved?
     
    #18 FundamentalOnly!, Jan 18, 2007
  19. J. Jump

    J. Jump New Member

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    Depends on what you mean by saved.
     
    #19 J. Jump, Jan 18, 2007
  20. Claudia_T

    Claudia_T New Member

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    If the Bible says that faith without works is DEAD then how can we be saved without any faith? Thats why James asked "can your faith save you?" and the answer is NO, obviously. I dont see why that is so difficult for people to grasp.
     
    #20 Claudia_T, Jan 19, 2007
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